BAe et leurs U(C)AVs

[TMor]

I don't know who will be interested, but I've found this (published in Jane's on June, the 10th, 1995, written by Nick Cook). Maybe this is interested to talk about stealth research in UK...

The USA - and other Western technical powers like France,

the UK and Germany - are pouring considerable funds into the mastery

of both Stealth and Counter-Stealth technologies.

Take the UK, for example. Since the mid-late 1980s, British

Aerospace Warton has pumped over Pds100 million ($160 million) -

about half of it coming from government sources - into

infrastructure improvements geared towards Stealth. Much of this

activity is aimed at meeting the RAF's need for a Future Offensive

Aircraft (FOA) to replace the Tornado IDS. Traditionally, US firms

such as Lockheed and Northrop have enjoyed a US-only monopoly in

black programming - the development of aircraft that are invisible

to public scrutiny.

Recent revelations that BAe is establishing a `Skunk Works' on its

own remote site at Warton and that the Germans tested manned

wind-tunnel models of their Stealth fighter, the Lampyridae, in the

mid-1980s - when the first-generation Lockheed F-117 was still so

classified its existence was officially denied - show an emerging

trend towards `black' programme secrecy in Europe, mirroring that of

the USA.

Together with advanced, lean manufacturing techniques that will

allow companies to rapid-prototype and build small batches of

aircraft at low cost, expect more from these countries in the way of

classified technology demonstration and even low-volume production

programmes, including full-sized air vehicles. `More', because

according to numerous sources, such activity is well advanced

already.

Pour illustrer :

Future Offensive Fighter (UK) intended to replace the Tornado IDS.

The Lampyridae Medium Range Missile Fighter (wind-tunnel model) ;)

[Invité Rob]

Thanks TMor. The facility the article speaks of is called "The Southside facility" because it's at the south part of the runway at Warton. Apparently there is extreme security screening in fron of the building and accoridng to another source it is highly secure (e.g. against satellite surveillance). The UAV/UCAVs coming out of the black now have been partly constructed at this facility.

[Invité Rob]

Here is a bigger picture of the BAe Raven UCAV:

[starpom]

The article about "the future military propulsion p.49" looks like an interesting article !! What does is say ?? :)

[Invité Rob]

Apparently [haven't read it just heard it from someone else] it is a US design with support from Rolls-Royce for a STOVL stealth bomber. :) Imagine one of those lifting off from a CVF. :)

[Invité Rob]

Link: http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/02/28/Navigation/177/205146/Remote+horizon+BAE+System's+UAV+plans+unveiled.html

[Fonck]

Once and FOR all. Neither MoD nor BAe qualifies Corax or anything else in the British inventory AS STEALTH. L.O or stealthy yes but talking of stealh about something equiped wqith straight wings is just taking the piss and keeping the old bad habits from WAFF isn't it ROB L? Advance in stealth is abouyt shape and material not size and apparently size is all what you CAN UNDERSTAND. So i'll WRITE IT IN LARGE LETTERS. THERE IS NO STEALTH VEHICLE IN BRITAIN AS FOR NOW AND THE BAE UCAV TDP IS STILL TO BE LAUNCHED. IT WOULD BE GOOD TO TRY TO MISSINFORM ELSWHERE. CAPICHE?

[Invité Rob]

I can understand your anger, you've been claiming the UK is doing nothing in the UAV/UCAV area for years now and then WHAMM BAe says we've got Kestrel, we've got Corax, we've got two Ravens, we've got four Hertis. That just has to piss you off. :twisted:

BTW Every article (and these articles are written on information supplied by BAe on February 16th) say "Low Observable" [AW&ST], "RCS reduction" [AW&ST], "all-round stealth", "stealth protoype" [Janes].

BAe's Andy Wilson calls Raven "representative of a sixth-generation air vehicle". Now would this by any chance include stealth? Sure.

Here is a picture for you my friend:

[Invité Rob]

more, why did the poor rosbifs would be leader in anythink when they aren't allowed to share stealth technonlogy from the USA?

This is an urban myth. Besides even if it was true, the tech would still be allowed to go into UK stealth aircraft. Can you actually see the Raven picture? It has stealth and autonomy, Dassault can't claim to have both [stealth and autonomy] in a UAV [stealth yes but not full autonomy].

and point me a electronic manufacturer in UK who have electronics skill to developp any "advanced " stuff that Thales, ST , Alcatel, Astrium, Sagem can't do being 10 years ahead?

What? BAe has a huge electronics divison [there are also companies such as QinetiQ etc....., besides you are mixing things up Astrium is not an electronics company but a space one [which also has large UK and German arms].

[faltenin]

Nungesser non seulement tu insultes les Britanniques mais tu insultes l'intelligence de tous les lecteurs de ce forum avec tes commentaires bornés.

[Sidelfi]

Moi aussi je suis une brèle en anglais: ça parle de quoi ici?

[Fenrir]

Rob parle du nouveau Drone furtif et autonomes devellopé par les britanniques, Fonck et NungesserC assurent que ce n'est que du mytho, que Bae est incapable de develloper un tel drone seul. +1 avec Faltenin, on est pas ici pour s'insulter meme en anglais, soyons des gentlemen et sachons ecouter les autres meme si cela ne nous palit pas.

[Invité Rob]

your raven is nothing stealth, open your fucking eyes, BAE is more a money comp than a developing technologies ones!

Ah so the Raven design is not stealth? You make me laugh. BTW BAe Systems invests more than 1000 Million Pounds in R&D every year.

the shape is far to be advanced, its a copy carbon of already design, as about UAV UCAV , poor you what's the Uk can bring near the efficience of actually purposed by Sagem, Thales, EADS and now Dassault new products?

I didn't really understand that. You see Raven flew in 2003, it is not intended to be more advanced than Neuron which will fly in 2011, 8 years later. Raven is there to show stealth and full autonomy, integrate newest technology with an advanced flight control system and do flight tests. To rival Neuron BAe will get a new UCAV contract.

you are a bunch of lackeys only able to open yours mounth of what could oncle sam trow in it!

Whatever.....

get a life, and keep your 22522000th demontrator that's make "BAE is still on course" to your taxes payers!

The fact that you are getting angry just shows that you're scared that BAe has pulled past Dassault in the UAV/UCAV area. If you want we can make a thread where you and I outline Dassault (you do that) and BAe's (I do that) UAV/UCAVs they've already built and flown and we ask people if they think that Dassault is ahead or not. For Fairness I'd suggest doing it once here and once in an english forum. Do you agree? Because really I don't see why BAe should be scared of any know-how comparison, after all they have: Herti 1A (12.6 metres wing span, 450kg weight), Herti 1D (8 metre wingspan and 350kg weight), Corax (more than 10 metres wingspan), Kestrel (5.5. metres wingspan, 140kg weight and two jet engines), Raven, Eclipse (2.5 metres wingspan and apparently first flapless vehicle ever) and a few others that haven't been released yet (mainly Flaviir UAVs)

and where fucking quinetic fools are in main actual european programs???

where? BAE? make me laugh!

I don't understand what are you saying? Calling the former DERA fools just shows how little you know, they are up there with brightest minds in Europe's defence industry. They develop absolute cutting edge technology.

[glitter]

more, why did the poor rosbifs would be leader in anythink when they aren't allowed to share stealth technonlogy from the USA?

They aren't allowed to use it with FOREIGN countries (but the USA of course)

L'angleterre aurait eu des transferts de technologies furtives mais avec l'interdiction de les utiliser pour un projet intrenational.

your raven is nothing stealth, open your fucking eyes, BAE is more a money comp than a developing technologies ones!

Fonk et compagnie, apportez la preuve INDENIABLE que le raven n'est pas furtif ou fermez là.

I don't understand what are you saying? Calling the former DERA fools just shows how little you know, they are up there with brightest minds in Europe's defence industry. They develop absolute cutting edge technology.

the problem is that, obviously, the DERA has been tailored to put the Typhoon in the best position as possible, specially with a castrated Rafale.

Since the goal was all but honest, the methodology is suffering from that.

[Invité Rob]

more, why did the poor rosbifs would be leader in anythink when they aren't allowed to share stealth technonlogy from the USA?

The UK has done extensive stealth research themselves [apart from the fact that they still could use US tech on British aircraft and not even considering that what your saying is apparently not true], for example BAe Replica [after this the US gave the UK more JSF workshare because they were convinced the UK did have a very good understanding of stealth]:

En francais: Je parle de "stealth". Le RU a fait beaucoup de projets qui ont valide le tech stealth. Par exemple le projet Replica [l'image].

the problem is that, obviously, the DERA has been tailored to put the Typhoon in the best position as possible, specially with a castrated Rafale.

Since the goal was all but honest, the methodology is suffering from that.

DERA est "Defence Evaluation and Research Agency", ils sont plus de "Typhoon testers". QinetiQ [ex DERA] a 10000 employes et ils ont beaucoup de know-how [pour example: http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20051207corp.htm]

[riri33]

vous pouvez pas parler francais merci

[Fonck]

Replica etait un Mock-up destine a etudier l'usage de materiaux nouveaux aisi que les methodes de construction apropriees. Aretez de nous bassiner avec le stealth dans le UK qui serais tres avance, je me marre; d'apres le MoD et BAe eux-meme ils sont charette et doivent lancer un programme de demonstration technologique pour en arriver au meme niveau que Dassault et SAAB en 2002. Ils ne decrivent/classifient AUCUN des vehicules present comme stealth (Corax/Raven etc appartiennent a la famille steal;thy UAV que Rob et un autre bozzo nomme RN Nod ont essaye tout d'abord de faire passer pour un UCAV sur le WAAF et meme sur ca forum). "The UK has done extensive stealth research themselves [apart from the fact that they still could use US tech on British aircraft and not even considering that what your saying is apparently not true], for example BAe Replica [after this the US gave the UK more JSF workshare because they were convinced the UK did have a very good understanding of stealth]:" Rigolo... how to RE-WRITRE history and take the piss out of everyone else: JCA est un programme UK/US from day ONE. Joint Common Aircraft. Designed to replace AV-8B IIs Harriers in both RAF/RN/USMC service. Obviously Rob doesn't know his ABC when it come to it, rather writing whatever, he Rob??? BAE didn't have ANY part in the making of the stealth/aerodynamic/structural design of F-35 and evenm WORSE, the total amount of researchbesd to be coinducted on the programme by the UK have been reduced as cost saving measure. Source NAO. As for the extensivity of the researches on stealth, not enough according to BAe Mike Tuner and MoD themself. They say publicly that the UCAV TDP still tot be launched is needed to master stealth technology to the extend wherre they would be asbler to tackle SAAB or Dassault job in the equivalent of NEURON, not just YET. In terms of developement of the stea;th technology, the UK is about 6 full years late.

[Invité Rob]

Replica etait un Mock-up destine a etudier l'usage de materiaux nouiveaux aisi que les methodes de construction. Aretez de nous bassiner avec le stealth dans le UK qui serais tres avance, je me marre; d'apres le MoD et BAe eux-meme ils sont charette et doivent lancer un programme de demonstration technologique pour en arriver au meme niveau que Dassault et SAAB en 2002.

Ils ne decrivent AUCUN des vehicules present come stealth.

lol I find it hugely entertaining that you seem to consider Dassault ahead of BAe whilst BAe has not only to date built more demonstrators but also larger ones and more advanced ones.[stealth and full autonomy (something Dassault is relying on the Swedes for)] :rolleyes:

[Fonck]

Bob you can taqke anyone for a fool but you forget just one little THING: There are more REAL Air Force specialist in this forum than you even been across in all you liar's life. As for puting all you got including the kitchen sink into the stealth category it doesn't make it a reality. http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3133/ukshareless1ss.jpg Here is YOURS. The UK have NOW less developement and researches work in the JSF contract/programme as well as less capabilities in the aircraft than originally planned all for a very higher price. Source NAO. Get to grip with your sad reality.

[Invité Rob]

Changing the subject I see, well I pity you. You know very well that with the recent BAe UCAV demonstrators you've been proven wrong on everything you've said in this regard. It is simple: BAe has more, larger and it seems also more advanced UAVs flying at the moment.

[Fonck]

"Changing the subject I see, well I pity you. You know very well that with the recent BAe UCAV demonstrators you've been proven wrong on everything you've said in this regard. It is simple: BAe has more, larger and it seems also more advanced UAVs flying at the moment." Sorry mate. NOT what i have SAID WHAT BAe and MoD said not your pitty interpretation of it. As for proving me wrong, you developed this psychose long ago we all can see this. Still inventing capabilities even as your officials say they don't have them yet???. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep your pitty for the like of yours you'll need it. AND WHAT UCAV??? You don't HAVE a UCAV my friend but a "stealthy" UAV as disribed by MoD and its makers. Poor boy.

[Invité Rob]

Sorry mate. NOT what i have SAID WHAT BAe and MoD said not your pitty interpretation of it. As for proving me wrong, you developed this psychose long ago we all can see this. Still inventing capabilities even your officials say they don't have yet. Keep your pitty for the like of yours you'll need it.

Huh? BAe said something about their new UAVs on a press conference on February 16th. After that all British news magazines came up with "stealth UAVs" etc.... Besides what would you call Raven? Anyway I think the fact that you aren't posting on WAFF tells a lot about who is telling the truth.

AND WHAT UCAV??? You don't HAVE a UCAV my friend but a "stealthy" UAV as disribed by MoD and its makers. Poor boy.

LOL. Can't you see? Are you blind? Can't you read the mags? Have you even registered Raven U©AV?

[Fonck]

Truth is a word ABSENT from your vocabulary. First of all the UK BAE or else didn't design an UCAV yet, this TDP is STILL to be launced with for goal to develop the stealth design capabilities they don't posses YET. This is WHAT BAE and MOD are saying and if i have to dig the article where they make it clear, i will but you still are a LIAR and a total Mythomaniac. Not surprisingly after trying to "Britishise" Thales, invent this TDP programme for the whole of last year etc. Proven LIAR Rob L keep at it we're all laughing. Poor boy!!. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! As for my post on Moyen Duc i like to give back some of your own medecine. Taking the piss mate. I had some fun...

[Invité Rob]

A subsequent nine-month design and build process led to the December 2003 flight of the Raven unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) platform (pictured below)

You see the people writing these articles actually talk to the people building these things. It has a lot of features of a UCAV and will be the baseline for the new TDP.

Link:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/02/28/Navigation/190/205146/Remote+horizon+BAE+System's+UAV+plans+unveiled.html

I'll ask you this: Do you think Dassault is more advanced in the UAV/UCAV area right now?

[Fonck]

Sorry my friend NOT UCAV But UAV. Now piss off. NOR MOD nor BAE doesn't classify them of Combat capable aircraft so it's simply UAV for you mate lie the Ducs. You see there is something VERY British i have to cope with every bloody day and which appears to affect even the press these days. Exageration. You know that i mean... You're the first at literally NOTHING so you have to pretend and this culture is quiet apperent to ALL foreigners living in the UK What these guys says i don't give a toss. The UCAV TDP is STILL to be launced period now try this one one someone your size (Brain that is...). AND this is NOT what i SAY but WHAT BAE Chaiman and MoD SAYS.... LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL