scaf FCAS SCAF et connexes (NGWS, drone FCAS - DP etc.)

[DEFA550]

il y a 7 minutes, castle68 a dit :

Heu, j'ai raté un truc ou le forum est passé in English version ?

Qui c'est qui a bidouillé les DNS pour nous expédier sur Keypub sans prévenir ! 

il y a 14 minutes, Patrick a dit :

Lastly I hope you'll pardon my somewhat clunky english.

 Je viens de prendre une leçon d'anglais 

[JohnCleese]

5 hours ago, Patrick said:

I do not take offense, my points, as they may seem, are not unsubstantiated.

Another thing is, contrarily to some other french amateurs (even trolls sometimes, alas!) I do not venture my feet (or rather keyboard) to places like F16.net and Keypublishing, in order to tickle US / UK aviation enthusiasts , even the kind capable of neat mind tricks, like refuting the existence of any form of active cancellation in the case of Rafale's SPECTRA, before marvelling at the DEWS F-15X's arguably featuring such a capability. That was just an example, I have many, all taken from this endless cesspit of francophobia that are english-speaking discussion forums dealing with military topics.

In short: If I indeed have the potential to be "that guy", I keep my divagations and disingenuous sarcasm for my own countrymen, to their great dismay or complicity, as you may have noticed.

Even I tried to talk to someone sure to stay out of F-16.net, without being white Aware of Any positive results.

So in order to sum up my arguments, I will be exposed to the subject, if by any chance I, a simple french aviation enthusiast who, by no means, has been gifted omniscience, but is hugely pessimistic in nature, happen to be read by other snarky anglosaxon aviation enthusiasts, yesmen, naysayers, cheeky chavs, Justin Bronks, Jon Lakes, and other forms of life, would they wish to know what some particular beret-wearing

***

 

Firtstly, the previous case of the FCAS- DP stealth drone:

The 2 billion pounds the UK did not pay for the joint FCAS- DP stealth UCAV joint Anglo-French project, have magically reappeared on the Tempest program.
The hesitation to pay, turned into tacit refusal, may have had something to do with Cameron getting out of office, yet it has been appropriately terminated in the Lancaster House treaty. 2010. France was willing to pay, so this money went elsewhere, and magically reappeared on the Franco-German FCAS.

On the British side, the announcement of a newfound funding for the Tempest is accompanied by a wishful comment from the secretary of defense, Gavin Williamson, as he made a mindboggling statement, considering the context:
https://www.youtube.com/ watch v = QWATZoGyLq0 & amp;? feature = youtu.be & amp; t = 428

How can you work with us? How can we work with you?

... Which was actually extremely fun, with the possibility of being able to get along, with the possibility of having a good sense of humor.

Again, take into account the FCAS- DP had just been left over at this moment ... And this man was speaking of cooperations?
In my opinion, that was preposterous to the point of being borderline crazy. But again, I'm just an angry mustached frog.

Let's simplify the equation. What's the message here?

In my opinion, it was:
" We want leadership and we can not do anything about our ability to stay at the bottom of the road. bus in order to swallow everything the US were throwing at us, without a second thought or a hint of disapproval . "

Excessive? I concede. Yet looking back at history, the cooperation between the French and British engineers on the FCAS- DP was going well. Exchanges were numerous, and a general positive mood prevailed. The termination, coming back from the UK, was another opportunity missed for a cooperation between France and Great Britain, one of the long list of ... reminiscent of things like the AFVG, canceled favor of F-111B sales to the UK that never occured, long time ago ...

What made FCAS- DP stop? History will tell one day. For now things have changed, and the franco-british alliance has been broken, only FMAN / FMC remaining from Lancaster House.

tl; dr:
The termination of the FCAS- DP through unwillingness to pay for it from the British side Demonstrates Any cooperation with the UK at the moment must be scrutinized Thoroughly before making the jump.

***

 

Secondly, the overwhelming presence of the F-35:

I do not see how Tempest is relevant when the F-35 is part of the equation. Or, maybe, were the declarations telling the whole world how the F-22 was superior, even to the F-22 in air-to-air, now appear to be so much of a concept, in order to emulate the role of the F-22 in the "5th gen" realm?

Yet the F-22 is supposed to be replaced by the NGAD in the near future ...

Do not we have some sort of a pattern here?
Replica has been eaten by the F-35, will the Tempest be eaten by NGAD?

As a good cheese-eater, my cardsian side tells me the same causes will produce the same results.

So yes, I'm pretty confident the moment Trump or his successor will say, or rather tweet: " The UK should BUY the NGAD / PCA, it is the BEST DEAL for our best ALLY that will help make Great Britain great again! specialrelationsheep ", your country is going to join, and the Tempest will be forgotten. Maybe the british industrialists will still feed the audience with the fable of " XX% of the program from our country " descending from the " 15% of the value of every F-35 coming from the UK " narrative, which is far from being true, and other PR BS like " tier 1 partner " and " XYZth generation " but that will be it.

F-136, this off the shelf for the F-35 has been sidelined because it was too expensive. Even after General Electric and Rolls Royce proposed to fund it autonomously. Which of course did not hesitate to criticize the reaction of the British against the offense that was made to their stragetic industr- oh wait, no they did not.

Was it karma being used to punish RR for refusing the alternative engine with the Eurofighter? which, as workshare should have been distributed by the volume of aircrafts ordered (France being the largest buyer) would have strengthened the position of France even more in the pre-1985 potential Eurofighter project with 5 countries? This position led to the refusal of RR to see it happen and gave François Mitterrand and the french MoD Charles Hernu the last incentive to leave and do the Rafale have Sacrificing Snecma Meant losing the Ability to make jet fighter engines Altogether.
I'm not superstitious, but I find that, it does not repeat itself, it often stutters.

tl; dr:
One does not just serve two masters hoping to get cut in half.
That's the official position of the German government towards Germany regarding the FCAS fighter: "why buying it if you also buy the F-35?"
When you get into the F-35 system, you do not get out of it, or replace it, or supplement it with anything. You keep it going

***

 

Thirdly, the grim shape of cooperation and short-term funding in Europe and the UK :

In times when Great Britain has difficulties paying for the Eurofighter (see the unacceptable fate of several slice 1 aircrafts) and as German politicians are doing everthing they can to undermine Britain's sales of this aircraft to Saudi Arabia, further in the context of brexit, it seems the divorce between Germany and Great Britain has been acted.

The Germans, after they arguably sabotaged the Tranche 4, do not seem to believe in this aircraft, wich is mindboggling to say the least.

In this context, and due to the situation where GB , after spending way too much money in America's useless wars since 2001, has problems funding the essentials. Do not tell me the 10 Downing Street is going to magically find money to fund research, procurement, and MCO of an aircraft such as the Tempest, even in a distant future, considering the presence of the F-35, which already taken the spot of "the stealth fighter", renders the situation completely "sunk costs fallacy". Problem, in the realm of armed forces, which are simply an extension of diplomacy in peace time, this fallacy makes a lot of sense.

I'm already doubting France can pay the FCAS / SCAF as we could not afford the Mirage 4000 (could we?) And German "needs" mean the FCAS fighter would be a very big plane . A type of aircraft Marcel Dassault CONSTANTLY his warned his teams for obvious affordability and export reasons. "Too big, too heavy, too expensive".

So what about a Eurofighter-bis? Sadly it is neither the British nor the Germans are willing to conduct another co-operation. Could France be the missing link? Post-Brexit, I doubt it.

And let's not forget that Dirk Hoke, the CEO of Airbus Defense and Space, said, "Hey guys, let's get the hell out of the picture. EXACT same name franco-british project had: FCAS ".

Then BAE gave the Tempest program and all it contained the name "FCAS" too. "FCAS-TI" to be accurate.

So that's 3 different FCAS in 3 years. A franco-british one, the UCAV, now canceled, a franco-german one, the system of systems and particularly the fighter, and a purely british one that searches for a partner.
Will there be a purely german and purely french one, as well as an anglo-german one? Time will tell, but it's going to be fun to look at the news.

Meanwhile, the F-35 has consolidated its commercial position. It has already been conquered a lot of european countries, and keeps doing so, we are looking forward to seeing you soon.

Remember also the belgians proclaimed they would " finance the future european fighter ". With what money? In what manner? They do not even think about buying it in the first place they're stuck with the F-35 which is going to syphoon 90% of their budget! Do they-have a magic trick In Their hats, gold Was this total BS to feed the public with? I'll let you decide.

Add the potential (and yet unproven) consequences of Brexit to the mixture, and brace for impact.

tl; dr:
In my opinion, the idea behind the Tempest, is to obtain a spot in any common project whatever group of countries are going to decide to pursue it. Yet this is a very bad posture, it is highly unlikely for the presence of the F-35, it would be supernumerary for the UK, rendering the "fighter aircrafts" hyper-inflated budget, ESPECIALLY if he listened to Sir Gavin Williamson's schedule : commissioned in 2035, which is widly optimistic and dangerous.

***

 

Conclusion:

I do not believe in Tempest because they are industrially and politically, the UK is likely to be involved in such cooperation in Europe and therefore have somehow experienced many potential participants. Look at SAAB-BOEING and the TX for example.

Wether this impossibility is due to the bad faith of germans or the constant pressure of the US with the F-35, the point still stands:
A RAF / fleet air arm operating ...

• the Eurofighter slice 3
• the F-35A / B
• a derivative of the Taranis
• AND the Tempest

... all at once, in 2035, is very optimistic at best, completely out of touch with reality at worst.

There is one of the most important aspects of the Avro Vulcan, which may give the UK a unique spot among Western powers, -B to anyone else, but such a program, while very expensive, would serve the purpose of fulfilling, and that's sadly the case with the Tempest. As, again, if Replica was canceled in the F-35, why would not it be abandoned in favor of the NGAD?

 

Lastly I hope you'll forgive my little clunky english.

Cheers.

 

I actually agree with most of what you've written. Although I believe the UK has the technical capabilities to develop an indigenous next generation plane, I do not believe it has the financial capacity to go it alone; co-development with Sweden and Italy/Japan would make it a much more serious proposal. 

Your English is excellent, but I wouldn't use it too much here - our friends are already getting a little agitated 

 

Modifié le 15 juin 2019 par JohnCleese

[Skw]

il y a une heure, JohnCleese a dit :

Your English is excellent, but I wouldn't use it too much on this forum - our friends are already getting a little agitated 

@JohnCleese  @Patrick

Ce pourrait être une bonne occasion de redynamiser ce fil / It seems there is an opportunity for revitalising this thread.

 

PS : Welcome, John. 

[Bechar06]

Il y a 10 heures, JohnCleese a dit :

Honestly, I only posted to annoy Patrick for his endless, but funny, targeting of the Tempest project. Please do not take offense!

English about Tempest ... OK, may be   ....  but because BREXIT   =>   Please   Français oder  Deutsche Sprache  O lengua española ONLY  !   about an european project

Modifié le 15 juin 2019 par Bechar06

[Patrick]

I have answered there, the originally intended topic.

 

 

il y a 31 minutes, Skw a dit :

Ce pourrait être une bonne occasion de redynamiser ce fil / It seems there is an opportunity for revitalising this thread.

Mind your own business!

[Deltafan]

Il y a 4 heures, gargouille a dit :

Ne vous excitez pas ce ne sont pas des dérives, comme la bâche n'est pas perméable et au vu de la météo DA a installé des pièces en bois pour laisser la maquette sécher en cas d'humidité sur la maquette.

Pffff, bon, ben alors maintenant, si même les pièces en bois sont furtives… 

Du coup, je mets ici également les images de "SCAF" de la vidéo defense.gouv.fr relative au Bourget 2019 (et ça va me permettre de tester comment on insert les liens sur le forum) : 

[jojo (lo savoyârd)]

Il y a 2 heures, Patrick a dit :

... Lastly I hope you'll pardon my somewhat clunky english.

That a joke, isn't it ? 

[Patrick]

il y a 24 minutes, Deltafan a dit :

Pffff, bon, ben alors maintenant, si même les pièces en bois sont furtives… 

Du coup, je mets ici également les images de "SCAF" de la vidéo defense.gouv.fr relative au Bourget 2019 (et ça va me permettre de tester comment on insert les liens sur le forum) : 

Tes liens ne marchent pas. Mais cette fois le MinArm ont pondu une sorte de vue d'artiste d'un pseudo F-22 à ailes delta...

C'est moins moche qu'avant, mais bon...

 

il y a 12 minutes, jojo (lo savoyârd) a dit :

That a joke, isn't it ? 

Je fais plein de fautes...

[Deltafan]

il y a 5 minutes, Patrick a dit :

Tes liens ne marchent pas

 

Ah bon, pourtant, chez moi ils fonctionnent...

Peut-être qu'il faut être inscrit sur le forum d'origine pour les voir.

[Bechar06]

Il y a 10 heures, Deltafan a dit :

pourtant, chez moi ils fonctionnent...

[  Il faut utiliser un serveur d'images ... Comme ici  ... servimg... ] 

Il y a 10 heures, Patrick a dit :

cette fois le MinArm ont pondu une sorte de vue d'artiste d'un pseudo F-22 à ailes delta...

Bon voilà LA BETE qu'ils présentent au MINARM ... Des engins volants qui volaient en groupe ... cela s'appelait un RAID 

Et un de ces engins qui largue un paquet  de choses depuis ses soutes ... Cela s'appelait  Un ????   Surtout avec plusieurs moteurs !

Bref ... UNE GROSSE BETE en offensive ( un peu haut en altitude )    ... Un truc bizarre ici : Un SEUL pilote par engin ... Heureusement qu'ils volent en RAID

 

 

Modifié le 16 juin 2019 par Bechar06

[Kelkin]

C'est les images d'Airbus, ça, non ?

 

De toute façon, je pense qu'il est encore trop tôt pour vraiment se livrer à de la maquettomancie. Rendez-vous au Bourget 2023 pour quelque chose de plus solide !

[jojo (lo savoyârd)]

Il y a 3 heures, Patrick a dit :

Tes liens ne marchent pas. Mais cette fois le MinArm ont pondu une sorte de vue d'artiste d'un pseudo F-22 à ailes delta...

C'est moins moche qu'avant, mais bon...

 

Çà reste de l'anticipation, on ne sait pas encore vraiment la formule qui sortira. Mais oui ... Va falloir s'habituer, çà fait un peu bizarre ... 

Il y a 3 heures, Patrick a dit :

Je fais plein de fautes...

Ben non ! Je voulais dire le contraire justement ... 

[Deltafan]

Il y a 3 heures, Bechar06 a dit :

[  Il faut utiliser un serveur d'images ... Comme ici  ... servimg…]

OK, merci.

Je vais voir ça avec mon pote Imgur, que je n'ai plus utilisé depuis au moins deux ans 

 

Ca devrait être mieux comme ça :

[Boule75]

Il y a 5 heures, Deltafan a dit :

Ca devrait être mieux comme ça :

Ca fonctionne.

[prof.566]

Airbus a carrément construit un pavillon "FCAS", on va s'exploser à coups d'IR etc. Pour un peu, si les chinois, russes ou us sont là ou nous offrira même une petite pilule de LSD avant.

Et voici, TADAA

Le remote carrier. On peut remercier S. Trimble.

 

Modifié le 16 juin 2019 par prof.566

[dark sidius]

En fait la maquette n'a pas de dérives  encore mieux.

[prof.566]

repéré aussi.

[mgtstrategy]

On 6/15/2019 at 12:25 AM, TarpTent said:

Bon, on est pas sur le bon fil, mais je veux bien que sur le fil de l’A400M, tu nous détailles tout ça.

Parce que soit c’est de la caricature de ta part, soit j’ai loupé pleiiiiins d’épisodes. (Je sais que ça va finir en « ils ne sautent pas tous » et «  ça ravitaille pas les hélicos », mais si c’est ça qui t’incite à écrire ta phrase, alors on est très loin dans la mauvaise foi)

Bah alors t'as avalé la tartine du matin de travers? Allez, du calme le PAS arrivé!

ptit article: https://www.challenges.fr/salon-du-bourget/a400m-la-revanche-de-l-avion-maudit_658139.amp?__twitter_impression=true

pr se réconcilier 

[P4]

 

Modifié le 16 juin 2019 par P4

[zx]

zut ca spoil pas beaucoup, grrr!

Modifié le 16 juin 2019 par zx

[Skw]

il y a 9 minutes, P4 a dit :

 

pour le coup, on n'a pas l'impression d'un empennage si proéminent que cela, du moins pas à la verticale. 

[Soho]

Visiblement chez Dassault on a l'art de noyer le poisson entre la maquette taille XXL et celle in-door, qui ne se ressemblent absolument pas

[zx]

va falloir attendre 2026 pour le savoir :P

[P4]

@Skw

Rufus avait laissé entendre qu'en fonction du besoin de controle du NGF l'angle des dérives pourraient varier.

[prof.566]

Un empennage à géométrie variable? CA ca serait original!