Double standards in moderation

[Invité Rob]

Why is it that French posters (Tapir) can post in the FRES discussion an opinion without posting any arguments, articles, etc... but I get attacked on a personal level (by Tancrede) when I defend these things? Why was European banned for doing exactly the same thing (posting information without links, etc...), just about Mirage IV, a French product? At the time, Fenrir told me that the reason for banning European was that he said things without proof or argumentation. I accepted this explanation and thought it would be a general rule. Apparently it isn't. I am not asking for anyone to be banned but why is it that these things get tolerated? Does this forum want to have no foreigners in this forum? Ban them and flame them all till the last gives up and the board's opinion is the same (i.e. franco-french)? Why is it that I, as a foreigner on this forum, have to take abuse and insults towards me and my country?

I am not saying that I am an angel, I take abuse and give out abuse from time to time (though iirc never on a personal level on this forum), but surely the minority has to protected better than the 90% French majority on this forum?

I do not want to leave the forum (my French has imo improved massively since I post here), but I herewith offer my resignation from the forum, if you don't want foreigners with a strong opinion on this board, tell me and I will leave voluntarily. You see I don't want a ban, as I'm posting from a university network. :lol: So, if I'm likely to be banned, tell me and I'll leave voluntarily and you can delete my account.

cette pure merveille de CR2

cette bouffonerie grotesque de M777 Portee 6x8

Link.

http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?topic=2884.300

Let's be fair, if I said "cette pure merveille de Rafale" and "cette bouffonerie grotesque de Mirage 2000" without any links or articles, do you think I wouldn't get banned within seconds on this forum?

As Fenrir told me at the time of European's ban, I am a good poster, because I post links, articles, etc... to help my argument, I still do, in the latest FRES argument, I was the only person to have posted two links and one article about Leclerc/Challenger II/M777/Caesar. But I get the abuse? I get told that I am dishonest. I get told I am wrong, despite my links at least helping my argument.

This is the thread European was apparently banned for. How are the above remarks any better? Does it make a difference if one attacks a non-French weapon without links, articles, information?

Link.

http://www.air-defense.net/Forum_AD/index.php?topic=9036.15

Sorry for the English but I can't say this in French.

[Akhilleus]

<je reviens ce soir pour qu'on en rediscute, Rob>

[Invité Rob]

Merci et aussi Happy Pancake Day. =)

Just to add to my argument, when TMor got really angry the other day on KeyPublishing Forum, I sent him a message of support, because I believe no one should be discriminated against on the basis of nationality (also race, religion, etc... but that is obviously not an issue here) which I believe was the case at the time, with Jackonicko attacking Rafale in an imo unfair way. It would be nice if TMor could confirm this, as a witness sort of. ;) Now, I'm not saying there is active discrimination against some groups here, just that there might be some subconscious favouring in moderation.

Also trying to paint me into the anti-France corner is ridiculous (as tried by Tancrede in the FRES debate), I don't dislike France, I have been to France on several occasions (Marseille/Nice region) and I even have 3 French friends. What I am, have been and always will be, is a British patriot who won't sit idle by if someone ridiculous the UK or it's products without reason. I don't mind people posting an opinion and trying to prove it. That is what I do all the time. If, taking the FRES argument as an example, Tapir had come into the discussion and said "Challenger II is crap, because ..." and then listed ten reasons and posted 8 articles all saying the same I wouldn't have cared, because that is a normal debate and I would have, or might not have, responded accordingly, but I can hardly make a case for Challenger II if someone just says it's crap and that's that. That is at the core of these posts here, that the moderation is too easy going when someone comes into a topic, goes off topic and does not provide sources. I am guilty of exactly that sometimes too, but I do try to find arguments, reasons, statistics and post them accordingly, hence it is not surprising that I am the only one in the latest FRES debate who posted stats, articles, etc... .

[Tapir]

@Robert

Sois tout de même honnête dans tes attaques, puisque tu me cites beaucoup.

As-tu fais la liste de tous les matériels britanniques dont j'ai dit du bien, pas seulement pour désamorcer la crise, mais par honnêteté intellectuelle ?

Je te l'ai dit, on parlera du Challenger et du M777 sur des fils dédiés. Pour le M777, ce sera

[Tapir]

...sorry, mon doigt a glissé. Pour le M777, ce sera ce soir.

Et relis tous mes posts : je tapes fort aussi sur certains matériels français.

Mais ne transformes pas ça en vendetta personnelle.  =)

[Invité Rob]

As-tu fais la liste de tous les matériels britanniques dont j'ai dit du bien, pas seulement pour désamorcer la crise, mais par honnêteté intellectuelle ?

That is not the point, you can post as much negative stuff about the UK (and positive things) as much as you like in my opinion, but if you post negative things (and also with positive things), then provide sources, links and articles why you have that opinion because it is impossible to argue with you when you just say "it's crap". This is not about me being pissed off that you have the opinion you have, it is about general neccessities of a forum, i.e. that one provides sources, facts and statistics for a disputed opinion. "Challenger II is bad" is not a fact and thus needs arguments, statistics etc... to be backed up, that is my grudge against you.

It is also frustrating that I take time and care to provide sources in disputed threads and then someone comes and doesn't do any of the kind.

Mais ne transformes pas ça en vendetta personnelle.

It's not, the FRES thread just brought my grudge to a climax.

[Akhilleus]

Hi robert ..... thanks for the wish about the pancake day (you can also ad happy birthday for me  ;))

So i will try to have a discussion with you in english in hope not to have too much misunderstanding related to language flaws

As i have said before (don't exactly remember but it was maybe about the F35 or the CV....) we have here two level of discussion

that may not be the same. You (yoursel have said that) are a patriot and always choose what you think better for England. That is fully understandable but doing so you are sometime very tough (or at least seem to be) about french stuff and companies. Why this is perceived like that.

- first of all, i think it is mainly a matter a language : English people have a too direct way of telling the things whereas french people usually  are coating ideas with words and adjectives and so on..... That way make you appear sometime too sharp and uncomprimising in the discussion even if you did'nt want to be

secondary : as you are among the very few english people on this forum you are very defensive about UK and english policy and English army or stuff. I have never seen you criticizing (or in a neglictible way)  something from your country

On the other hand look at the discussion and thread among us all .... We are criticizing our government/army/stuff/policy, we disagree each other, we disagree with you but also among us. So when we are talking about english army or navy or whatever,  you seem to never accept to consider that what some of us are writting may be at least a beginning of the small piece of true or a plausible hypothesis (remember the flaming about the Time article ?) but you put yourself immediately in a defensive stence (or at least it is perceived like that) and protect the english flag at all price even if it is unaccurate from our point of view

third :

I do not think there is English bashing here and I agree with you ,posting  should imply sources. However, even source will not make us agree because source are biased

You will never see an english source being official or popular saying that Chally II is a bad tank (whereas you can find plenty making jokes about the Leclerc in our popular press)

What we perceive from our side of the Channel is that you over evaluate the value of your stuff when you talk about it (and don't say the contrary I have seen enough TV stuff from history channel/BBC.... that strenghten me in that idea : for exemple a TV show about tanks saying that Comet was the best allied tank in the IIe WW. The point is that the Comet/Chally/Typhoon... whatever you want may be good stuff they are not perfect. However, when you read english sources (and it appears in your posts too) the english material can only be defeated by Gods. In an operationnal point of view this do not mean that your stuff is bad but it is too often presented as "the best of the best of the best that kill all" On the other hand, we French, always find that our military stuff is not good enough (although it can be totally accurate with the missions it is dedicated for) and we are focusing on the flaws rarely on the good (look at the topic titles : "Leclerc et ses problèmes" for exemple). So everything that is said too perfect (the english way of presenting things) is seen as suspect..... here is one explanation of the misunderstanding

in conclusion talking about European is not accurate because it was a little small troll not knowing what he was talking about whereas despite the little flame you had Tapir, You and Tancrede are fair posters providing useful documentation, informations and so on.

Moreover, what you perceive as an attack may not be perceived as such by the moderation. (language level, personnal succeptibility, god knows what....) In this case, if you feel insulted (really) send a MP to a moderator, then we will investigate the case. Altough you seem not to agree with that ,we try to be as neutral as possible (which is not an easy thing) and to make the best moderating job... but as we canot see/read/answer to everything, we need a little help from everybody in this forum : that is called automoderating  ;)

so that 's all

Sorry if there is plenty of mistakes  in this post but i hope it has helped you to understood the basis of misundertanding between you and some french posters .....

[Tapir]

Tout est dit.

Mais soyons honnêtes, peut-être bien que sur un forum anglais, je me sentirais "seul contre tous" et réagirais de la même manière que Robert...

Maintenant, j'ai rédigé un truc long comme le bras sur le thème M777 Vs Caesar, mais on va peut-être pas saouler tout le monde sur un topic auquel personne ne touche plus depuis longtemps (Limaws)...En MP ou ailleurs ?

[Invité grinch]

> limaws

[looping]

Et vive l'entente cordiale !!!!!

[Akhilleus]

Mais soyons honnêtes, peut-être bien que sur un forum anglais, je me sentirais "seul contre tous" et réagirais de la même manière que Robert...

bah c'est probable ...... quand on est a peu pret le seul a defendre sa version et qu'on est bombardé de contradictions (dans la discussion hein et même si c'est plus ou moins serein) par 3-4-5 personnes différentes, on peut se sentir agressé et repondre à l'emporte pièce dans la foulée

c'est effectivement le syndrome "seul contre tous"

d'autant plus que notre fierté nationale fait que l'on perd souvent son objectivité face à des "étrangers"

ça c'est le syndrome "le truc le plus pourri produit chez moi sera toujours meilleur que celui produit par les bouseux/navets/incapables/2 mains gauches d'à coté qui de toute façon ne  comprennent rien à ce qu'on fait et on jamais su s'y prendre" (c'est long pour un nom de syndrome mais fallait au moins ça  ;))

et c'est vrai pour tout le monde .....

[Fenrir]

Rob, je comprends ta situation très bien.

Mais comparé Tapir avec European...

European qui sortait souvent des bêtises pour blesser uniquement les français, il été incapable de pondre un sujet à celui que Tapir vient d'écrire.

Et quand un troll a insulté directement European, je n'ai pas hésité une minute à le bannir (je parle du troll pas d'European).

Puis avoue que de balancer sur un forum français que le Challenger II est superieur au Leclerc sans apporter aucun argument/lien c'est aussi très limite.

Surtout quand on sait que tu aimes bien rappeler que le Rafale ne se vend pas et que le Chally n'a été acheté que à 18 ex par Oman...

[Invité Rob]

Puis avoue que de balancer sur un forum français que le Challenger II est superieur au Leclerc sans apporter aucun argument/lien c'est aussi très limite.

Je n'ai pas commencer le debate, j'ai repondu apres Tapir a ridicule le Challenger II. Et j'ai poste un article du Janes.

Surtout quand on sait que tu aimes bien rappeler que le Rafale ne se vend pas et que le Chally n'a été acheté que à 18 ex par Oman...

Je pense que je poste presque jamais (peut-etre jamais, je ne suis pas sur) en la fils de discussion du Rafale, presque toujours je defende l'Eurofighter en la fils de discussion pour l'Eurofighter (mais ou tout le monde parle de Rafale pour un raison qui je ne sais pas.).

[Zamorana]

Du moment que tu ne pretend pas que le L-85 est le meilleur fusil d'assaut du monde, ça va, ton objectivité est sauve...

[Akhilleus]

<merci de ne pas relancer le "flaming" même si c'est pour rigoler dans ce genre de topic qui vise a regler et recadrer des incompréhensions et des différents>

[Zamorana]

Désolé, le but n'était pas de faire monter la tension.

Par contre je conçoit tres bien que si l'ont vient sur un forum c'est pour discuter sans forcement etre d'accord, le tout est de rester poli, et c'est tres bien de pouvoir discuter avec des étrangers pour la diversité des points de vue.

[pascal]

Robert et Will nous apportent beaucoup. Mais de grâce qu'ils n'aillent pas imaginer que nous passons notre temps à dénigrer et à médire sur leur pays, leurs programmes et leurs matériels.

Dès que l'on dit qq chose qui ne va pas dans le bon sens (même étayée de bon arguments et de bons renseignements) c'est mal vu... Je dis stop car même s'il y a erreur ce n'est ni une outrance ni une attaque simplement une constatation. Qui peut être démentie; mais certainement pas vue comme un dénigrement. Nous avons pour beaucoup ici la dent suffisamment dure avec nos propres matériels et stratégies...

[TMor]

Avant d'aller plus loin dans la discussion, désolé, Rob, pour le retard, j'avais pas vu ce topic :

Just to add to my argument, when TMor got really angry the other day on KeyPublishing Forum, I sent him a message of support, because I believe no one should be discriminated against on the basis of nationality (also race, religion, etc... but that is obviously not an issue here) which I believe was the case at the time, with Jackonicko attacking Rafale in an imo unfair way. It would be nice if TMor could confirm this, as a witness sort of. ;) Now, I'm not saying there is active discrimination against some groups here, just that there might be some subconscious favouring in moderation.

DONC, OUI, JE CONFIRME QUE ROB M'A ENVOYÉ UN TEL MESSAGE. Ca m'a fait très plaisir.  =)

Mais de grâce qu'ils n'aillent pas imaginer que nous passons notre temps à dénigrer et à médire sur leur pays, leurs programmes et leurs matériels.

Faut surtout se mettre à leur place.

Rob (par exemple, j'aurais pu dire Will) arrive, s'il sort la moindre blague, son procès est déjà fait. C'est pas juste. On a pas forcément pris le temps d'analyser ce qu'il a dit, le comment, le pourquoi. Si ça se trouve, on réagit sans même s'intéresser à son point de vue.

Heureusement pour nous, Rob ne blague pas énormément, c'est un mec très sérieux qui documente beaucoup ses messages.

Pour nous, un forum anglo-saxon est presque toujours un forum international. Donc, on a tendance à imposer à mort notre point de vue en imposant rigueur et objectivité aux autres, parce qu'en tant que minorité marginalisée (français, quoi), c'est notre condition de survie/crédibilité.

Air-Defense, qu'on le veuille ou non, est un forum international désormais. Et on devrait s'imposer aussi beaucoup de rigueur et d'objectivité.

Entre français, on se comprend, on a les même préjugés, on a parfois entendu les même choses, on a des sensibilités communes, etc. Si un étranger débarque ici, il ne comprend pas, et donne un point de vue qui diffère tellement du notre qu'il risque un clash.

Je crois que Rob s'impose suffisamment de rigueur pour poster ici, il mérite sa place, un mérite que nous n'avons pas donné à European parce que ses opinions avaient l'allure de provocations permanentes (je parle d'apparence). Mais en réalité, ce que nous faisons s'y apparente aussi. Et on le fait d'autant plus facilement que nous sommes entre français, peut-être mal conscient que ce forum s'internationalise.

Je crois donc que nous pourrions faire mieux, ceci sans se vexer des commentaires que Rob nous fait.

C'est ainsi que j'ai compris son premier message du topic, c'est les conclusions que j'en tire.

[P4]

Mais oui Rob on va meme se prendre la tete pour toi  >:(

[TMor]

Mais oui Rob on va meme se prendre la tete pour toi  >:(

J'comprends pas.