CV90 : pourquoi tant d'amour ?

[Philippe Top-Force]

L'impossibilité de déplyoer le Leclerc est un problème franco-français d'argent, de capacité logistique et de soutien et de volonté politique (le message de déployer des MBT).

A ce que je sache, le Canada et l'UK ont bien baladé leurs MBTs sans avoir des budgets hors de proportion de la France.

Les Canadiens, Danois, et les Britanniques étaient dans le Sud Afghan, plus propice, plus plat au niveau compartiment de terrain à déployer des MBT...A part au Liban, je ne vois pas en ce moment où l'on peut déployer en OPEX française des MBT Leclerc...Sauf aux émirats arabes unis, pour des exercices grandeur nature en zone désertique/tropicalisée et très chaude.

@Serge, ton info je l'avais déjà mise le 22 avril ici http://www.air-defense.net/forum/index.php?topic=3327.msg611624#msg611624

[Serge]

Surtout que la France déploie 4000 hommes dans l'affaire afghane. Mais il y a du monde aussi au Liban (dont un escadron XL qui bouffait 50% de la MCO en OPEX), en Côte d'Ivoire, Tchad, Centre-Afrique et tout le reste.

L'armée britannique, qui fait la guerre la vrai, a son pays qui lui donne pas d'argent. C'est un massacre budgétaire.

[debonneguerre]

Je trouve pas que le terrain libanais soit plus propice au déploiement de leclercs que le terrain afghan, c'est purement politique comme décision..d'ailleurs on ferait bien de les dégager de la-bas fissa.

[g4lly]

Je trouve pas que le terrain libanais soit plus propice au déploiement de leclercs que le terrain afghan, c'est purement politique comme décision..d'ailleurs on ferait bien de les dégager de la-bas fissa.

C'était pour jouer au auto tampon avec les merk! ceux qui ont essayé avec des vehicule plus léger s'en souvienne encore :lol:

[Serge]

L'Afghanistan est autrement plus impraticable que le Liban. Même si ce n'est pas plat.

[Krogort]

L'armée britannique, qui fait la guerre la vrai, a son pays qui lui donne pas d'argent. C'est un massacre budgétaire.

Tu fais référence a leur engagement plus dur en afghanistan et en irak ou a autre chose ?

[Serge]

Oui avec un détail d'approche. Ils engagent la totalité de leurs moyens dans cette affaire au risque de siphonner tout leur budget.

[Babou]

Je trouve pas que le terrain libanais soit plus propice au déploiement de leclercs que le terrain afghan, c'est purement politique comme décision..d'ailleurs on ferait bien de les dégager de la-bas fissa.

les leclerc sont d'ailleurs pas déjà partis du Liban..?

[Serge]

Ily à quelques temps déjà.

[debonneguerre]

Ah, ok, au temps pour moi!

[Serge]

Présentation du programme norvégien de modernisation de leur force moto-mécanisée:

As it enters its 20th year in service, the CV90 tracked infantry fighting vehicle is just getting started. The platform, in service with six nations and produced here by BAE Systems Hagglunds, is about to be delivered in a range of new variants that include medical evacuation, mortar carrier and cargo transport, and it remains at the heart of BAE's ambitious program to develop a multiuse adaptive camouflage system.

The original CV90, designed and built for the Swedish defense ministry, was fitted with a 40-mm Bofors cannon and designated CV9040. An export model fitted with a 30-mm Bushmaster cannon, known as CV9030, was ordered by Norway in 1994. Under a £500 million ($800 million) contract signed in June, BAE will upgrade the entire Norwegian CV90 fleet and supply an additional 41 vehicles, bringing the total to 144.

“The Norwegian army has had very good experience with the CV90,” explains Conny Flemin, Hagglunds' deputy project manager for the Norway upgrade program. “There has been little negative feedback—the only thing they actually mention is related to space in the combat compartment, which we have solved.”

The upgrade program is complicated. Most, but not all, of the extant 103 Norwegian vehicles—one of the 104 originally ordered in 1994 has been scrapped—will have the original Mk. I chassis replaced by the larger, more-capable Mk. III. The Mk. III is 200 mm (7.8 in.) longer, 170 mm higher in the troop compartment, and has a 6.5-ton increase in payload capacity. A new machine gun—the type is yet to be decided—will be fielded on all vehicles.

Once the upgrade is completed, Norway will have 74 CV9030s in the basic configuration, the extended Mk. III chassis topped with the Mk. I turrets originally supplied under the 1994 contract, and with eight seats in the troop compartment rather than the original seven. A further 15 vehicles will be supplied as command-and-control platforms, their troop compartment equipped with four operator workstations, and another 21 as armored reconnaissance vehicles, both with Mk. I turrets atop Mk. III chassis. As this totals 110 vehicles, BAE will manufacture an additional seven Mk. I turrets, identical to the 1990s turret except for the integration of a Mk. 44 Bushmaster, as the original gun is no longer in production.

The remaining 34 vehicles will be based on the turretless Armadillo configuration unveiled at the Eurosatory show in 2010. Two will be supplied as trainers, with the remainder divided between a combat engineering vehicle (which will use the original Mk. I chassis, as the increased space in the rear compartment is not required), a mortar carrier and a reconfigurable multi-use carrier, which can be operated in casualty evacuation, as an eight-seat VIP transport or a cargo hauler.

“There will be a total of nine different configurations, so this is truly a challenge in logistics,” says Flemin. “As of today, we are actually ahead of plan.”

The program will proceed in staggered phases, with finalized design of the last variant to be delivered, the armored reconnaissance platform, about a year behind the basic vehicle schedule. Delivery of the final vehicle is planned for the second quarter of 2017.

The contract also includes a 20-year maintenance agreement, initiated on delivery of the first upgraded vehicle, and comprising five-year options.

Meanwhile, Hagglunds continues to publicize a concept based on a CV90120—a light-tank configuration featuring a Ruag 120-mm smoothbore cannon—covered with small hexagonal panels that change the thermal signature of the vehicle. Called Adaptiv, it is the product of a research partnership with the Swedish ministry into the viability of an adaptive camouflage system. Announced at the DSEi exhibition in London last year, Adaptiv has so far demonstrated the ability to blend the vehicle's infrared (IR) signature with background images; to change that signature to mimic other objects in the landscape, such as civilian vehicles or natural objects; and to display messages or markings to communicate with friendly forces.

But there are challenges. “We probably cannot sell this only with the IR feature,” says Peder Sjolund, Adaptiv program manager. “We need multispectral features on the system. The goal of the whole system is to include visual active camouflage, radar cross-section reduction with radar-absorbent features in the tiles and inherent blast protection.”

Sjolund argues that many necessary technologies are available commercially, and estimates that, with funding in place, a viable prototype could be produced in two to three years, with a finished system deliverable in under six years. A decision on further Swedish government funding is expected before the end of the year. Sjolund says the company has had discussions with “several” interested potential customers.

[Serge]

À relier aux tests de Nexter sur un châssis AMX-30 réversible:

Swedish Systecon analyses Life Cycle Costs for different tracks of the Combat Vehicle 90 (CV90)

4 Dec, 2012 06:00 CET

The Swedish consulting and software company Systecon AB, is analyzing the life cycle cost of two different track systems for the Combat Vehicle 90 (CV90) on behalf of BAE Systems.

The manufacturer of the CV90, BAE Systems, was requested by the six user-countries to carry out a project that analyzes the economic impact of equipping the CV90 with tracks made of rubber in comparison to traditional steel tracks. Fitting combat vehicles in this weight class with rubber tracks significantly reduces vibration and noise both inside and outside of the vehicle, however it places different demands on maintenance, operation and support services.

Systecon was consulted by BAE Systems to participate in the project that compares the life cycle costs of the two different track options. A cost structure was built where all costs related to the two track options were included and summarized for the entire life cycle of the vehicle. Replacing the steel tracks with rubber tracks means an additional cost, but also long-term savings in terms of reduced failure rate on the vehicle’s components, thanks to the reduction of vibrations. A major challenge in the analysis is to quantify the indirect parameters, such as negative impact on the crew due to the vehicle’s vibrations.

The work is conducted in a project with experts from BAE Systems. Processing and analysis of data is done in Systecon´s own optimization tool OPUS10 ®, simulation tool SIMLOX ® and the results will be analyzed in the cost analysis program CATLOC ®.

Peder Sjölund, Project Manager at BAE Systems, comments:

"This study is important for us to be able to show the pros and cons of our rubber track technology in comparison to traditional steel track technology. The intention is that this analysis will serve as a good basis for decisions for our customers in discussions about purchase of rubber tracks. It is very exciting to be working together with Systecon and using their expertise to perform a thorough analysis of direct and indirect costs from a life cycle perspective. Above all, it is interesting to use Systecon’s tools to analyze the different solutions in different operating scenarios to understand how the different band options affect our customers over a long period.”

[...]

Systecon is an employee-owned independent consulting and software company with world leading competence within the areas system logistics, operational availability and cost efficiency. By performing expert analysis and optimization of clients' technical systems and logistics resources, Systecon has a proven ability to find the optimal balance between requirements for performance and availability and the resources needed. Through more effective system utilization, customers can cut costs and/or increase profitability.

Systecon´s customers are primarily found within the defense, railway and energy sectors. The self-developed analysis tools OPUS10, SIMLOX and CATLOC are used by hundreds of customers worldwide. The turnover in 2010 was around 68 million SEK. Systecon has three offices in Stockholm, Gothenburg and Malmö. Through an extensive representative network, Systecon is also present in over 20 countries worldwide.

http://www.cisionwire.com/systecon-ab/r/swedish-systecon-analyses-life-cycle-costs-for-different-tracks-of-the-combat-vehicle-90--cv90-,c9343644

[Serge]

BAE vient de livrer en évaluation un Armadillo à l'armée danoise (qui a déjà des CV-90Mk-III, les IKK.).

Armadillo Delivered

We have delivered a new variant of our CV90 Armadillo, finished in traditional Danish Army camouflage, to the Danish Army Oksbol base for competitive evaluation to meet Denmark's armored personnel carrier requirement

Class-leading protection and optimum mission flexibility

Trials - involving five different vehicles - begin mid-April and will continue until September with contract scheduled for February next year. First deliveries will be in 2015.

Armadillo offers class-leading protection and optimum mission flexibility. A “hot” production line (CV90 is in build for Norway) and six existing operators mean a proven low-risk solution, both for initial purchase and long-term sustainment and upgrade.

Denmark is looking to replace its existing M113s in a deal which will also include a 15-year innovative support contract.

Armadillo is a turretless version of CV90 with ballistic and mine protection which exceed Stanag 4a/b. Removal of the turret gives six tonnes of “spare” payload for further protection or other purposes on top of its "fighting configuration" while its state-of-the-art electronic architecture allows “plug and play” of new systems.

Une petite vidéo:

Et j'ai grillé Philippe sur cette info ce qui n'est pas rien.

[Babou]

sa capacité d'emport de fantassin monte a combien..?

[Sovngard]

sa capacité d'emport de fantassin monte a combien..?

8 fantassins et 3 membres d'équipage http://www.military-today.com/apc/cv90_armadillo.htm

[Serge]

Les tests commencent:

Strong contenders are already beginning to emerge for Denmark's APC-replacement programme, currently the largest vehicle competition in Europe, with armoured vehicle evaluation trials now underway.

The Danish Defence Acquisition and Logistics Organisation (DALO) has launched the trials for the project, which aims to purchase some 360 vehicles to replace the army's ageing M113-series tracked vehicle fleet.

More than 50% of the vehicle requirement is for APC and command post variants with the remaining quantity split between ambulance, engineer, recovery and mortar variants.

The shortlisted candidates consist of three tracked and two 8x8 wheeled vehicles.

They are the BAE Systems CV90 Armadillo, the FFG Protected Mission Module Carrier (PMMC) G5 and the General Dynamics European Land Systems (GDELS) Santa Barbara Sistemas ASCOD 1. The two wheeled vehicles are the Nexter Systems VBCI and the GDELS Piranha 5.

As the Danish requirement did not state either a wheeled or tracked solution, companies have been free to offer either although only GDELS has offered both a tracked and wheeled vehicle, giving the company a distinct advantage.

The evaluation trials started on 15 April and are planned to finish in September 2013. Some 375 demanding tests will be conducted on mobility, ergonomics, user requirements and technology assessments with Danish Army commanders and drivers having already been trained and allocated to the five contender vehicles. The tracked vehicles are all, unusually, fitted with rubber band tracks.

The BAE Systems CV90 Armadillo from Sweden, whilst not in-service, has considerable commonality with the current Danish Army infantry fighting vehicle, the BAE Systems CV9035, and the newest CV90 vehicles in neighbouring Norway.

BAE Systems spokesman, Peter Edwards, stated that a ‘tracked vehicle is the way to go’ and was confident of securing a suitable industrial partner in Denmark in due course.

The Piranha 5 from GDELS in Switzerland is the latest member of the Piranha family of vehicles spanning many generations and variants, but as yet has not secured its first launch customer. GDELS have already signed a teaming agreement with the Danish company Falck Schmidt Defence Systems but are ‘open to continue to partner with other companies to enhance the local content in Denmark’, Thomas Lattmann, spokesman for GDELS, told Shephard.

Also from GDELS, but from their Spanish business, is the in-service ASCOD 1. The British Army recently selected the more modern ASCOD 2 for their Specialist Vehicle programme and this was considered by GDELS for Denmark but according to their spokesman, Carlos Gil, ‘for the Danish requirement it is one step further (and) is not really required’.

This opens up questions about the UK’s selection of ASCOD 2 as the point of departure for its future armoured vehicle requirements, how they might differ from Demark and the progress that has been made as the tight production deadlines for the Danish competition mean that the trials vehicles must be almost production ready. As yet GDELS has yet to provide a really detailed picture of ASCOD 2s capabilities and how it differs from ASCOD 1, or how significantly the UK Scout SV will differ from these.

In a surprising admission to Shephard, the DALO Chief of the APC-Replacement Project Office, Col Karsten Kolding stated the more modern ASCOD 2 was not offered by GDELS and ‘I do not know the differences between ASCOD 1 and ASCOD 2’.

Somewhat embarrassingly, the old ASCOD 1 trial vehicle broke down during a media day at the trials this week and is believed to have broken down at least one more time since the trials began.

Analysts believe that Germany’s FFG will be one of the strongest candidates in the programme. The company is the most well established industrial contender in Denmark having a commercial relationship with DALO and Danish industry spanning 15 years. Their G5 vehicle is a major investment for the size of the company and so far they have built two prototypes and already tested the vehicles over 25,000km.

The Nexter Systems VBCI is the only contender in-production, in-service and in-combat, most recently in Mali with the French Army.

According to Nexter, the VBCI on trials in Denmark is ‘very close to the French Army version’ with the exception of the commander and driver stations, which are specific to Danish requirements. The French Army already field multiple variants of VBCI that closely match the Danish requirements.

The programme has contract negotiations being completed by the end of 2013 and contract award in mid-2014. The final contract will be split in two parts covering equipment acquisition and through-life support. The contract value was not revealed but is widely expected to be over $1 billion mark.

There has been considerable worldwide interest in the Danish competition as it evaluates both wheeled and tracked vehicles from some of the biggest names in the armoured vehicle industry.

The relative merits of wheeled versus tracked vehicle designs will be a central feature of the trials and those results will be closely watched and scrutinised. If a tracked solution is selected it will have rubber band track for the first time in a major heavy platform.

The repercussions for the eventual winner and losers will no doubt be felt in future competitions, including forthcoming programmes in the US, Canada and Poland.

[Philippe Top-Force]

BAE vient de livrer en évaluation un Armadillo à l'armée danoise (qui a déjà des CV-90Mk-III, les IKK.).Une petite vidéo:

Et j'ai grillé Philippe sur cette info ce qui n'est pas rien.

En fait  ;) , je t'ai laissé mettre ce scoop Serge,  :lol:

Mais je me suis rattrapé avec les nouveautés turc de IDEF 2013, apposées avant Xavier, Alain ou Rescator  :oops:  comme celle-ci

[Serge]

Le nouveau Tulpar.

[Philippe Top-Force]

Le nouveau Tulpar.

Les Turcs mettent le paquet avec plein de nouveautés à leur salon http://www.idef13.com/

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGOSFf8_NpI

[Dadou]

Mais je me suis rattrapé avec les nouveautés turc de IDEF 2013, apposées avant Xavier, Alain ou Rescator    comme celle-ci

Euh, oui, mais sur ce  coup la je t'ai pris de cour... :lol:

[Philippe Top-Force]

Euh, oui, mais sur ce  coup la je t'ai pris de cour... :lol:

Prendre court avec un T. =) Entre la cuisson du rôti hier et celle du poulet aujourd'hui à surveiller, apposer quelques messages par paquet de 5 à l'heure et faire des thématiques sur ce qui flotte, ce qui roule et ce qui vole sur ce forum parce qu'il pleut comme vaches qui pissent pour les 2 jours fériés, j'assume comme un chef  :lol: y compris pour répondre aux MP, aux tweet et aux courriels.

Mais j'en conviens qu'il faut ouvrir plusieurs onglets, préparer les liens et les messages, voire les photographies pour illustrer.Sinon, on s'arrête en cours de route. :lol:  Je sais que tu as apposé quelques photos avant moi, sur d'autres fils, au moins ils n'auront plus d'excuses sur l'armement terrestre turc qui sort, qui s'expose et qui va bientôt se vendre.

@Serge ou un autre? Savez-vous si le Danemark a l'intention de mixer son parc ou alors de ne prendre qu'un châssis/train de roulement?

Parce qu'il y avait un débat dessus http://snafu-solomon.blogspot.fr/2012/11/tracks-vs-wheels-dutch-debate.html

Vu que les danois ont déjà 45 CV9035 MkIII dk

Et une question à la con, pourquoi ne pas avoir pris de MRAV Boxer comme leurs voisins allemands et néerlandais?  :oops:

[Serge]

Pour l'heure, l'expression de besoin danois dit "remplacement du M113".

Il n'y a rien d'autre.

Pour ce qui est des préférences, je n'ai pas de source. Je dirais simplement que si le choix porte sur un chenillé, la logique placerait l'Armadillo en tête pour avoir une cohérence logistique et d'instruction. En effet, si le F5 de FFG est sans doute très bon, il introduirait un blindé supplémentaire pour un nombre assez faible. Mieux vaut alors privilégier un parc CV-90 pour avoir une chaîne logistique simplifiée au maximum. Il ne faut pas oublier l'unification de la formation des personnels (pilotes et mécanos) qui est un tracas pour les petites armées.

Il faut prendre en compte un autre point: quelle est la vision danois pour l'avenir? S'ils pensent projection alors choisir un 8x8 aurait un intéret. Il offrirait l'effet du M-113 mais aussi une évolution possible pour le parc à roues danois. L'introduction d'un AMV ou d'un VBCI-export pourrait leur permettre d'unifier le parc à roues.

Ils auraient ainsi des Leopard-2, des IKK et des 8x8. Ce serait pas mal.

[Philippe Top-Force]

Pour l'heure, l'expression de besoin danois dit "remplacement du M113".

Il n'y a rien d'autre.

Pour ce qui est des préférences, je n'ai pas de source. Je dirais simplement que si le choix porte sur un chenillé, la logique placerait l'Armadillo en tête pour avoir une cohérence logistique et d'instruction. En effet, si le F5 de FFG est sans doute très bon, il introduirait un blindé supplémentaire pour un nombre assez faible. Mieux vaut alors privilégier un parc CV-90 pour avoir une chaîne logistique simplifiée au maximum. Il ne faut pas oublier l'unification de la formation des personnels (pilotes et mécanos) qui est un tracas pour les petites armées.

Il faut prendre en compte un autre point: quelle est la vision danois pour l'avenir? S'ils pensent projection alors choisir un 8x8 aurait un intéret. Il offrirait l'effet du M-113 mais aussi une évolution possible pour le parc à roues danois. L'introduction d'un AMV ou d'un VBCI-export pourrait leur permettre d'unifier le parc à roues.

Ils auraient ainsi des Leopard-2, des IKK et des 8x8. Ce serait pas mal.

En fait Serge tu as donc donné la réponse dans ce que j'ai surligné en gras, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Royal_Danish_Army

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Army

Infantry fighting vehicle and armoured carriers Combat Vehicle 90: (45)

    CV9035 MkIII infantry fighting vehicle: (45)

M113, M113 G3 DK and M113 G3 Waran in various versions: (around 600)

    Armored personnel carrier

    Mortar carrier (81 mm) (retired)

    Command vehicles

    Repair vehicle

    Fitters Vehicle

    TOW carrier (retired)

    Ambulance

    Combat engineers vehicle

    Counter-mortar radar (retired)

    Ground surveillance radar (retired)

    Tactical air control party carrier

    Fire support vehicle (25 mm autocannon) (retired)

    Fire fighting vehicle

Mowag Piranha III 8x8 in H and C variants: (113)

    Armoured personnel carrier (Lemur 12,7mm OHW)

    Armoured ambulance

    Communications and informations systems carrier

    Tactical air control party carrier

    Command and control vehicle

    Reconnaissance vehicle

Patria XA-185: (11)

    Armoured ambulance (leased)

Soit ils s'équipent de plusieurs centaines de CV90 Armadillo, (qui au passage est aussi le nom d'un documentaire danois, sur les forces armées danoises en Afghanistan) POUR remplacer le parc M113 family en parc unique , ou ils poussent plus loin et donc si on se fit à l'ORBAT Wikipédien, (j'ai la flemme d'aller voir sur le site officiel ) ainsi, ils décident aussi de remplacer leurs 124 véhicules à roues, Patria XA-185 et PIRANHA III Mowag par du VTT VBCI. 8x8 export

[Dadou]

Petite vidéos des différents véhicules proposés =

[Philippe Top-Force]

Petite vidéos des différents véhicules proposés =

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fHZY7TpuPvs

On notera le VBCI VTT export, le Piranha 5, mais aussi le chenillé ASCOD LM UK, et avec l'Amardillo ,le chenillé FFG