BAe et leurs U(C)AVs

[Aerobar]

Le Barracuda d'EADS, ce n'est pas un UAV mais un USV (Unmanned Submarinal Vehicle) [29]

[Invité Rob]

vivement les premiers vols de l'UCAV/UAV de BAE , a tous les couts ce sera une reussite a l'image du BARACUDA d'EADS.

Huh? Les premiers vols de UAVs de BAE etaient devant annees. Ils auront beaucoup de succes et ils auront beaucoup de succes en futur. Je pense qu'il est probable que le Neuron ne sera pas le premier UCAV en Europe.

[glitter]

Le Barracuda d'EADS, ce n'est pas un UAV mais un USV (Unmanned Submarinal Vehicle) [29]

J'attends de voir les résultats de l'enquête, mais bon, paas terrible.

Quelque mois de tests et PLOUF

[seb24]

Je pense qu'il est probable que le Neuron ne sera pas le premier UCAV en Europe.

Pour l'instant le Neuron c'est le seul programme de demonstrateur UCAV complet qui est en plein developpement et qui dispose d'une date de premier vol. La première étape vient d'être franchies avec succès. Donc à priori ce sera le premier.

[Invité Rob]

Pour l'instant le Neuron c'est le seul programme de demonstrateur UCAV complet qui est en plein developpement et qui dispose d'une date de premier vol. La première étape vient d'être franchies avec succès. Donc à priori ce sera le premier.

Excusez moi. Je veut dire: "Je pense qu'il est probable que le Neuron ne sera pas le premier UCAV europeen qui vol." Je pense qu'on peut-etre savait plus quand BAe annonce leur programme UCAV/URAV avec QinetiQ, Rolls-Royce et Smiths Aerospace.

[Philippe Top-Force]

Le gouvernement britannique vient d'accorder un contrat de 124 millions de livres au groupe BAE Systems pour l'étude et le développement de drones militaires, dans le cadre d'un projet baptisé Taranis. Le contrat porte sur quatre ans. BAE Systems dirigera un consortium d'entreprises, qui comprendra Rolls-Royce, Qinetiq et Smiths.

8 décembre 06 - The Wall Street Journal.

[faltenin]

avec le projet européen nEURON en cours, ce cavalier seul britannique rappelle furieusement celui de Dassault lors du projet EAP. Est ce que l'on va parler d'arrogance et d'égotisme britannique sur les fora anglo saxons ?

[Invité Rob]

avec le projet européen nEURON en cours, ce cavalier seul britannique rappelle furieusement celui de Dassault lors du projet EAP. Est ce que l'on va parler d'arrogance et d'égotisme britannique sur les fora anglo saxons ?

EAP etait un projet britannique sans le support officiel d'Allemage et l'Italie [mais avec un peu d'input d'Aeritalia at MBB]. Je pense que tu veux dire EFA. Mais les deux situations [EFA et Neuron] sont tres differents. Nous n'avons pas negocier avec la France pour participer en Neuron et nous n'avons pas demander un "workshare" indiscutable.

RAF takes next step towards pilotless combat aircraft

8 Dec 06

The RAF and MOD have taken a major step towards the UK's first unmanned combat aircraft with the announcement of programme "Taranis".

Minister for Defence Procurement, Lord Drayson with a model of Taranis at the Institute of Physics [Picture: Ian Nelson]

A four year development programme, "Taranis", will give the RAF a demonstrator that will form the basis of its plans to build the first pilotless front line fighter-bomber.

The project, which was announced at the Institute of Physics by Lord Drayson, Minister for Defence Procurement, represents the most important phase in the UK's Strategic Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV) experiment.

The focus of the work over the next four years will be designing and flying an aircraft and gathering the evidence needed to inform decisions about a future long-range offensive aircraft and to evaluate how UAV's will contribute to the RAF's future mix of aircraft.

BAE Systems at Warton in Lancashire have been awarded the lead contract – worth £124m – to develop a world class UAV demonstrator programme.

Project Taranis, named after the Celtic God of Thunder, will build an unmanned fast jet demonstrator the size of a Hawk trainer - making it one of the world's largest UAVs - that will be stealthy, fast and be able to test deploy a range of munitions over a number of targets and be able to defend itself against manned and other unmanned enemy aircraft.

The Taranis Technology Development Programme (TDP) is designed to bring together the latest in unmanned technology and integrate them in a single aircraft. Once built, the ground and flying trials will take place at a BAE Systems range in Australia. The understanding Project Taranis provides will inform the potential manned/unmanned mix of future RAF fixed-wing requirements.

To view a CGI clip of Taranis, click on the link under Related Links >>>

Flight trials are planned to start in just over three years. Lord Drayson said:

"This contract will test cutting edge technology for a new generation of equipment for our front line forces. This is something that would not be out of place in the latest James Bond film – a pilotless combat aircraft for the British Armed Forces that will be capable of delivering weapons to a battlefield in another continent with almost no need for operator input.

"It does not come much more exciting than that. Taranis has the potential to revolutionise the way we conduct military operations. It is every bit as significant as vertical lift technology that we see in the Harrier or the advent of the attack helicopter.

"The partnership between the MOD and industry led by BAE is an example of what lies at the heart of the Defence Industrial Strategy that was launched a year ago - ensuring MOD and industry work together more effectively to ensure our Forces get the equipment they need."

"The experience and knowledge gained from Taranis will also support the next generation of combat aircraft including the Joint Strike Fighter. It will empower decisions the RAF and MOD need to make at the start of the next decade on future air capability and the mix between manned and unmanned aircraft.

"If Barnes Wallis and RJ Mitchell were here today they would be impressed."

Assistant Chief of the Air Staff, Air Vice-Marshal Chris Moran added:

"This is a very exciting programme – it will deliver important developments for the RAF of the future and add a new dimension to the force mix which should enhance our battle-winning capability. This is a cornerstone capability transformation for Defence.

"Taranis represents an historic milestone in the UK's drive to develop a stealthy unmanned combat aerial vehicle to deliver capability in the deep battle of the future."

Link: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/RafTakesNextStepTowardsPilotlessCombatAircraftvideo.htm

J'aime le nom "Taranis" et j'aime le "look" de Taranis:

[Neo]

Jolie, mais je doute de la furtiviter de l'entrée d'air

[Invité Rob]

Jolie, mais je doute de la furtiviter de l'entrée d'air

Je ne sais pas si l'entree de l'air est tres furtive, mais je sais qu'en le programme "Nightjar" BAE SYSTEMS a fait beaucoup de R&D en "stealth" inlets. Le premier vol pour le Taranis est probablement 2010. [16][08][61]

Je pense que BAE a un nouveau version de HERTI - le HERTI 1B:

HERTI UAV flight trials

Air Systems' latest HERTI 1B Autonomous Unmanned Air Vehicle (UAV) Demonstrator had a successful first flight at Woomera test range, South Australia on 5 November 2006. A number of successful flight trials have now been carried out demonstrating the system's ability to successfully autonomously search a pre-defined target area for objects such as Improvised Explosive Devices and alert the operator to their presence.

Link: http://ir.baesystems.com/bae/shareholder_info/communications/2006/2006-11-30/#b6

[Invité Rob]

08 Feb 2007

BAE SYSTEMS UAV PROGRAMMES NOW INCLUDE ‘TARANIS’ UCAV

As the HERTI UAV (Unmanned Air Vehicle) system makes its public debut at Aero India 2007, BAE Systems in the UK is now beginning work on a four-year programme to develop a different category of UAV programme – specifically for the UK Ministry of Defence.

While HERTI is primarily positioned as a Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) utility UAV tailored to meet the needs of military, civil or commercial operators wanting a robust, reliable and affordable fully autonomous system for reconnaissance or surveillance work - the Taranis Technology Demonstrator Programme will focus on “Deep Persistent Offensive Capability” and will help inform the future UK Force-Mix.

Taranis will build on and use a number of the technologies and systems trialled in the HERTI programme and in other UAV demonstrators produced by BAE Systems such as Corax, and Raven. This work has already made a significant contribution to a range of successful risk reduction activities on the Taranis project.

BAE Systems is leading the joint £124 million Taranis programme with the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), working together with Rolls-Royce, Smiths Aerospace and QinetiQ, to develop and fly Taranis which will explore and demonstrate how emerging technologies and systems can deliver battle-winning capabilities for the UK armed forces.

The project, part of the UK Government’s Strategic Unmanned Air Vehicle (Experimental) Programme [sUAV(E)], will result in a UAV with fully integrated autonomous systems and low observable features.

About the size of a BAE Systems Hawk, Taranis will provide the MoD with experimental evidence on the potential capabilities of this class of UAV and help to inform decisions on the future mix of manned and unmanned fast jet aircraft.

Taranis is jointly funded by the UK MoD and UK industry, and will bring together a number of technologies, capabilities and systems to produce a technology demonstrator based around a fully autonomous intelligent system.

Ground testing of Taranis is expected to take place in early 2009 with the first flight trials taking place in 2010.

In addition to the existing industry partners, the project will also engage a significant number of other UK suppliers who will provide the programme with supporting technology and components.

Chris Allam, Project Director for the programme at BAE Systems, said: “Taranis will make use of at least 10 years of research and development into low observables, systems integration, control infrastructure and full autonomy. It follows the completion of risk reduction activities to ensure the mix of technologies, materials and systems used are robust enough for the ‘next logical step’. These risk reduction activities include the Replica* programme, jointly funded with the MoD and the MoD funded ‘Nightjar**’ programme.

He added: “Taranis will build on and use the technologies and systems trialled in the previous demonstrators we have produced such as Corax, Raven*** and HERTI. It is an important part of our future.”

Editor’s Notes

BAE Systems, as prime contractor will provide many elements of the Taranis technology demonstrator, including the low observability, systems integration, control infrastructure and full autonomy elements (in partnership with QinetiQ); Rolls-Royce will focus on the next generation propulsion installation for the demonstrator and Smiths Aerospace will utilise their skills in ‘vehicle systems’. The TDP Programme will also use a number of other suppliers, some of which have already been selected, including the supply of flight control computing from BAE Systems Australia, one of the few non UK developments expected in the programme and support from BAE Systems Integrated System Technologies (INSYTE) with C4ISTAR related work.

*The Replica programme had the objective of supporting the development of a UK capability to provide a survivable, affordable and supportable air platform to meet perceived Royal Air Force and Royal Navy requirements beyond current programmes. Replica resulted in the production of a full scale Model of a radar signature controlled aircraft configuration, with key features representative of a flying integrated weapon system, which was then taken through a rigorous test programme. A key aim of the Replica programme was to demonstrate Low Observable (LO) technologies in a low cost design and production environment, using paperless aircraft processes.

**The Nightjar programme is an example of the technology programmes which are being exploited in this programme. The programme has played a crucial part in increasing the UK’s knowledge and understanding of how to design and manufacture future air vehicles. The aim of the Nightjar programme was to explore the integration of new airframe features, which could be critical for the future of air vehicle design. The programme provided stepped increases in valuable data on issues surrounding design, aerodynamics, manufacturing and in-service performance limits.

***The Raven programme has already successfully demonstrated some of the key technologies required for the programme. It was run in the BAE Systems Advanced Technology Demonstration Centre at Warton during 2003/4 and in ten months was taken from concept to first flight. The system was targeted at demonstrating flight control and autonomous system functionality along with ‘rapid prototyping’ techniques and capabilities.

Link: http://www.baesystems.com/aeroindia/news/080207news1.htm

01 Feb 2007

BAE SYSTEMS HERTI UAV COMPLETES SUCCESSFUL WOOMERA TRIALS

BAE Systems has confirmed the successful completion of a new series of trials for its fully autonomous HERTI UAV (unmanned air vehicle) system.

In November and December 2006 the BAE Systems HERTI flight test and deployment team successfully completed fully autonomous flight trials at the Woomera range in southern Australia. This was followed by a period of data analysis in early January, now completed.

In addition to performance flight test missions for the UAV, the system successfully achieved a number of further key milestones with its autonomous ICE (Image Collection & Exploitation) mission system.

The ICE system successfully completed and undertook autonomous target searches and, as part of the on-going joint industry / RAF ‘Project Morrigan’, also demonstrated searches for operationally representative targets as set out by the RAF Air Warfare Centre UAV Battlelab.

Mark Kane, managing director of the BAE Systems Autonomous Systems & Future Capability business said: “These trials were conducted in high ambient temperatures, typical for this time of the year in Australia. The system exhibited a very high level of availability with no missions being lost to system serviceability. HERTI is continuing to prove a robust and reliable platform – not least because the level of systems autonomy it offers.”

The HERTI and its ICE system will be making its first public international appearance at the AeroIndia show in Bangalore in early February.

About BAE SYSTEMS

BAE Systems is the premier transatlantic defence and aerospace company delivering a full range of products and services for air, land and naval forces, as well as advanced electronics, information technology solutions and customer support services. With 88,000 employees worldwide, BAE Systems' sales exceeded 12 billion pounds (US22 billion dollars) in 2005, excluding the Group's former interest in Airbus.

Link: http://www.baesystems.com/aeroindia/news/010207news1.htm

Out of the shadows

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Published: 29 January 2007 02:00 PM

Industry Channel: Military & Defence

Source: The Engineer

Just a few years ago the idea of a robot combat aircraft was little more than a glint in the eye of the most forward thinking military scientist.

While remotely operated drones used for reconnaissance have been around for some time the autonomous, unmanned combat air vehicle (UCAV) has remained in that shadowy area where military secrecy and the whispered rumours of science-fiction geeks make the truth hard to find.

But now the veil of secrecy is beginning to slip and, in both the US and here in the UK, the use of robotic combat aircraft is fast becoming a reality of modern warfare.

Under a £124m MoD contract announced late last year, UK engineers have begun work on the development of a prototype unmanned air vehicle (UAV) that could pave the way for a new generation of autonomous, stealthy aircraft and ultimately spell the end for human bomber pilots.

Headed by BAE systems, the aim of the portentous-sounding Taranis project (named after the Celtic god of thunder), is to build and fly a technology demonstrator that will autonomously travel long distances deep into enemy territory and sneak past sophisticated air-defence systems. It will, says Chris Clarkson, BAE's technical director of autonomous systems and future capability, 'demonstrate the maturity of some of the key technologies required for a deep-strike UCAV'.

The four-year project also involves Rolls-Royce, which is developing the propulsion system; Smiths Aerospace, which is working on the flight electronics and Qinetiq, which is developing the autonomous flight control alongside BAE. Ground testing of Taranis will take place in early 2009 and the first flight trials are expected a year later in Woomera, Australia.

After that, if the project achieves its aims, it is up to the MoD to decide whether deep-strike UCAVs will form a part of its future air capability.

Some aspects of Taranis' design are still to be finalised while other details are closely guarded but the finished vehicle is expected to borrow heavily from earlier BAE UAV projects such as Raven, Corax and Herti.

While the precise dimensions of Taranis are under wraps, the aircraft is expected to be around the same size as a BAE Hawk jet [these are 12.4m long]. This would make it one of the biggest UCAVs yet developed, although it is possible that a full production version of such a vehicle would be bigger still given the payload it might be expected to carry.

So what would a deep-strike UCAV be capable of? While suggesting it would fulfill a similar role to the Tornado, BAE was otherwise tight-lipped.

So The Engineer consulted renowned UAV expert, Bristol University's Dr Thomas Richardson, who was happy to indulge in some informed speculation.

Based on the few glimpses that BAE has allowed of the Taranis design, Richardson said it looks like it would be used to carry out stealthy, ground-attack missions, possibly involving air-defence targets, in the initial phases of a military operation. He said on route to the theatre of operations he would expect Taranis to cruise at an altitude of up to 35,000ft before flying low in the final stages of attack to avoid radar detection.

Given this, Richardson said the performance of the aircraft will probably depend on stealth, rather than speed. 'I expect that Taranis will not be capable of supersonic flight and will probably have an upper limit of Mach 0.8.'

He added that he does not expect the aircraft to be particularly manoeuvrable. 'The role for Taranis will depend on it remaining unobserved and it is unlikely, especially at this stage, that they are considering rapid manoeuvring in order to avoid air or ground threats.'

Despite the emphasis on stealth, performance is still an issue and BAE's Clarkson said one of the tricks in the design process will be striking a balance between these two characteristics. 'You want it to have a low signature but you still want it to be able to reach these in-depth targets — you still have to have the performance capability and it's got to be flyable. One aspect of this sort of generation of vehicles is the lack of a vertical fin, so the ability to control the vehicle is particularly important,' he said.

One of the biggest keys to Taranis' stealthiness will be its autonomous operation. While most production UAVs now in use are remotely operated Taranis, said Clarkson, will operate with an unprecedented degree of autonomy. 'It needs to have intelligence in its mission systems to allow it to route round threats and take evasive action if it needs to do so, without having to have a human involved.'

Thus, while human operators will be called upon if the vehicle has gone off-course, or to authorise weapons deployment, its communications back to base will otherwise be kept to a bare minimum, helping the aircraft to remain hidden from enemy eyes. 'If you're on a sensitive mission, every time you communicate back with base, that's when the enemy will spot you. You only want to be communicating those times that you have to,' he said.

The autonomous operation draws heavily on work carried out by BAE on Raven, Corax and Herti. 'Raven and Corax demonstrated the ability to start with a mouse click and end with a mouse click — and upload new missions to the vehicle. You can ask it to loiter, you can tell it to do things during the mission if you need to but equally if it lost communications it would continue to do its mission,' said Clarkson.

Explaining the operation of Herti's autonomous system, Clarkson said that the vehicle is programmed with a 3D corridor, a time constraint as to when it has to be exiting that corridor, and a 3D box when it gets to the target area that it can fly within. 'It can do what it likes as long as it doesn't go outside that corridor,' he said.

On the relatively few occasions the aircraft will need to talk to the outside world, it will use a communications system that is also being developed with stealth in mind. Clarkson declined to reveal the specifics of this system but said many of the design challenges are focused on keeping the radar cross-section low by ensuring nothing protrudes from the body of the aircraft.

'You can't have lots of aerials sticking out — the key technologies here are how you integrate the antennae in the vehicle, in a way that you don't have protuberances that would give it a high radar signature.' He added that BAE has already demonstrated the required technology 'on the bench' but this is the first time it will be brought together on a flying vehicle.

A critical element of any military communications system is how the data is collected and packaged before being sent back to base. To meet this challenge, Clarkson said Taranis will use BAE's ICE image collection and exploitation technology. Previously tested on Herti, Raven and the BAE autonomous underwater vehicle Talisman, this autonomously collects and distributes high-quality images using specially-developed image compression technologies. According to a recent BAE announcement, the technology is being further developed so that it can form part of an onboard auto-routing capability and threat-avoidance system, and provide an automatic target-recognition capability.

As to how how images are acquired by Taranis, Richardson suggested the system is likely to use existing, off-the-shelf components.

'It is very unlikely that they would develop bespoke solutions in terms of sensing technologies given both the timescales and the budget involved,' he said, adding that sensors used might include synthetic aperture radar (SAR) and/or infra-red (IR).

BAE will not discuss the weapons payload that will be carried by Taranis. Some reports have suggested the vehicle may be equipped with directed energy weapons but Richardson thinks this unlikely. 'I would suggest that it will be designed to carry conventional weapons, probably stowed within the vehicle,' he said.

He added that the stealth requirements of the design mean it will be undesirable to have weapons mounted on pods outside the vehicle and any weapons are likely to be stored internally. However, the challenges of safely releasing internally stored weapons are considerable. 'Weapon release from internal weapons bays is an ongoing area of research aimed at the safe, reliable release of weapons into the air flow. Modelling and testing of weapons release is an ongoing engineering challenge,' added Richardson.

The development and integration of the propulsion system, which some reports have suggested may be based on Rolls-Royce Adour engine, is also governed by stealth considerations. 'You don't want to be throwing a lot of energy overboard so that IR missiles can see the vehicle. You have some very difficult propulsion integration things to do. You haven't got the freedom you have with conventional aircraft,' Richardson said.

Here, Clarkson's team is drawing heavily on the lessons learned with Nightjar, a six-year BAE project, which concluded earlier this month. Carried out at BAE's Warton site in Lancashire, the Nightjar project centred around a testbody specially designed to have a low radar signature, so that technologies fitted to it could be analysed without the body itself figuring in the test results. During these tests Nightjar provided vital data on air-induction systems (intake and ducts) performance.

As well as developing the on-board technology, another important aim of the Taranis project is to demonstrate the ease with which such a vehicle could be manufactured.

Again, this side of the project will borrow from previous forays into the world of UAV production and is likely to draw particularly heavily on rapid prototyping techniques initially investigated during the Raven project. 'We're looking at composite technologies that don't need the enormous great autoclaves that we need for today's composites,' said Clarkson.

Richardson said such an approach would reduce infrastructure costs and lead times as well as bring other benefits. 'Given the tight timescale, rapid prototyping would be highly desirable as well as damage-tolerant, light-weight stealthy materials, all of which would lend themselves towards composite materials.'

Ease of manufacture is likely to be further enhanced by the mix-and-match approach employed by BAE's UCAV developers. 'Rather than reinventing the wheel — the same flight control system would be used in Raven, Corax and Herti and they all have the same fuel systems and the same electric actuation systems, so you don't have to come up with a new set of actuators for each system,' said Clarkson.

He believes this approach, which enabled BAE to take Raven, Corax and Herti from concept to development in just 10 months, was one of the major factors in securing the MoD contract for Taranis.

Despite the corners that can be cut using the latest manufacturing techniques, a production UCAV based on the Taranis model will not be cheap. Indeed, according to Richardson, the cost of any production vehicle is likely to be close to that of an existing strike aircraft (about £25m). Instead, he claims, its potential to reduce troop losses is likely to be the biggest selling point for the MoD.

'It is often thought that UAVs would be cheaper. However, in this role the platform still needs to be able to carry the same payload as well as having an increased level of autonomy compared to that of existing strike platforms.

'The benefit of UCAVs such as Taranis is not in terms of cost but predominantly in their potential to be able to reduce the risk to military personnel.'

Beyond its potential as a future aircraft, Taranis is also extremely important in developing the UK's general level of autonomous vehicle expertise.

Richardson said while it is possible to learn a lot about autonomy using computer simulations, there is no substitute for the experience gained by developing the real thing. 'This is a really exciting time in the aircraft industry where UAVs are just beginning to demonstrate what they are capable of.

'This is the next logical step in UAV development within the UK and it will be fascinating to see how Taranis develops.'

Link: http://www.e4engineering.com/Articles/297976/Out+of+the+shadows.htm

[Sub']

avec le projet européen nEURON en cours, ce cavalier seul britannique rappelle furieusement celui de Dassault lors du projet EAP. Est ce que l'on va parler d'arrogance et d'égotisme britannique sur les fora anglo saxons ?

Laisse tomber... regarde la réponse suivant...

Un workshare indiscutable ? cest vrai qune version marine de leurosaxon était totalement depourvu dinteret pour la GB...

Les francais = pas bien

Les anglais = bien

[faltenin]

c'est vrai que je n'ai jamais lu que des sources anglo saxonnes pour cette histoire d'exigeance par Dassault. Et connaissant leur hypocrisise, euh pardon leur fair play [08] c'est à se demander si ce n'est pas comme les armes de destruction massive de Saddam [26]

[TMor]

Jolie, mais je doute de la furtiviter de l'entrée d'air

En fait on s'en fout pas mal, c'est pour ça qu'elle est au dessus de l'engin, c'est pour la masquer depuis le sol. Tout le monde fait comme ça.

[faltenin]

Il faut bien reconnaître que tous ces drones se ressemblent quand même pas mal. X45 X47 Grand, petit, moyen duc, Neuron, Taranis (existe t'il d'ailleurs autre part que dans les images de synthèse) ...

[Neo]

Le SlowFast dans tout ca? bon ok je ---> C'est que ca doit étre une géométrie tres favorable pour la futiviter, a noter que pour les petit, moyen, grand duc et neuron ce n'aurait pas été cohérant qu'ils ne se resemblent pas

[cvs]

géométrie tres favorable pour la futiviter

kezako ?????? [31]

[Neo]

Je veut dire que la forme des appareils est favorable à l'absorption et la déviation des ondes radar

[Invité Rob]

Il faut bien reconnaître que tous ces drones se ressemblent quand même pas mal. X45 X47 Grand, petit, moyen duc, Neuron, Taranis (existe t'il d'ailleurs autre part que dans les images de synthèse) ...

Ici une image d'entree d'air [probablement du Taranis] en le testbed Nightjar.

Un workshare indiscutable ? cest vrai qune version marine de leurosaxon était totalement depourvu dinteret pour la GB...

Les francais = pas bien

Les anglais = bien

La France demandait 50% du workshare, mais la France voulait acheter moins de 40%!!! C'est indiscutable, les nombres ne sont pas propaganda, ils sont vrai. Et le Royaume-Uni, l'Espagne, l'Allemand et l'Italie ne voulaient pas une version marine, c'est 80% du 5 pays! Et voila nous avons l'Eurofighter et vous avez le Rafale et je suis tres content avec ca, mais je pense que Dassault regrettera ca. Mais c'est une autre theme.

[TMor]

Et voila nous avons l'Eurofighter et vous avez le Rafale et je suis tres content avec ca, mais je pense que Dassault regrettera ca. Mais c'est une autre theme.

Regretter quoi ? T'as tellement de fierté pour ce qui s'est fait dans ton camp ? [29]

Non, vraiment, il n'y a pas de quoi ! [30]

[faltenin]

J'aime bien le raisonnement "si je le dis c'est vrai et indiscutable". Mais, à part sur des forum anglais dont la subjectivité (hypocrisie) est avérée je n'ai jamais vu de source officielle pour cette prétendue exigence de 50% de la charge de travail. Je pense que Dassault demandait le leadership sur le projet (comme dans Neuron) ce qui me semble raisonnable puisqu'un leadership aurait indéniablement amélioré l'efficacité du projet et qu'ils étaient qualifiés pour le faire (ils n'allaient quand même pas demander le leadrship pour BAe [09]). Je pense qu'ils auraient aussi exigé de concevoir les commandes de vol et les gouvernes (c'est leur politique industrielle et un impératif d'efficacité selon eux) mais je ne crois pas que cela monte à 50% de la charge de travail. Quant au reste (moteurs, ailes, radar) le gouvernement français voulait défendre la charge de travail de ses propres industriels et chacun des gouvernements avait la même ambition, excepté qu'hormi la GB et la France, aucun n'avait d'industrie capable de produire tous les éléments d'un chasseur indépendamment ; donc tous avaient moins de concessions et de sacrifice à faire. De plus concevoir un appareil capable d'opérer sur porte-avions demande qu'on prenne cette considération en compte dès le début. Et selon toi la France devait sacrifier la version marine alors qu'elle en avait besoin ! Je trouve cela hypocrite.

[TMor]

Mais, à part sur des forum anglais dont la subjectivité (hypocrisie) est avérée

Heureusement pour eux, histoire d'équilibrer, on en sort des bonnes de temps à autres... [30]

[faltenin]

oui mais ici c'est de l'humour [16][08][50][10]

[Sub']

Ici une image d'entree d'air [probablement du Taranis] en le testbed Nightjar.

http://www.baesystems.com/static/bae_cimg_mas_nightjar_testbody_latestReleased_bae_cimg_mas_nightjar_testbody_Web.jpg

La France demandait 50% du workshare, mais la France voulait acheter moins de 40%!!! C'est indiscutable, les nombres ne sont pas propaganda, ils sont vrai. Et le Royaume-Uni, l'Espagne, l'Allemand et l'Italie ne voulaient pas une version marine, c'est 80% du 5 pays! Et voila nous avons l'Eurofighter et vous avez le Rafale et je suis tres content avec ca, mais je pense que Dassault regrettera ca. Mais c'est une autre theme.

En tant que " citoyen britannique", j'aimerais savoir pourquoi tu ne regrette pas...

1) une version marine de l'Eurofighter, je te rappelle au passage que c'est pas nouveau votre envie d'acquérir un PA...

2)Tu regrette pas que la France ne fasse pas partie du programme EFA malgré tout ? Il faut avouer que l'on peut toujours s'entendre, surtout sur le workshare...

Mais comment peut-tu justifier que la France " a abusé " en voulant une vesion Marine et un appareil conçu dès le depart pour les missions de bombardement ?

La France demandé des capacité à l'EFA que vous demandez aussi aujourd'hui... Et le montage industrielle peut toujours se négocier...

Nb : EFA + France ==>> 900 appareil à produire au moin !!!

[Invité Rob]

1) une version marine de l'Eurofighter, je te rappelle au passage que c'est pas nouveau votre envie d'acquérir un PA...

Nous voulons un STOVL PA, mais en tout cas en les 1980s nous ne savons pas si le RU achete des grands PAs.

2)Tu regrette pas que la France ne fasse pas partie du programme EFA malgré tout ?

Avec les demandes de la France [50%, leadership]? Non. La France peut faire partie dans des programmes europeen quand elle ne fait pas des demandes indiscutable. Une exemple est Neuron, la France paye iirc 45% et il recoit 50% du travaille, c'est acceptable pour beaucoup des pays europeen.

Il faut avouer que l'on peut toujours s'entendre, surtout sur le workshare...

Mais comment peut-tu justifier que la France " a abusé " en voulant une vesion Marine et un appareil conçu dès le depart pour les missions de bombardement ?

Que l'Eurofighter n'a pas un plan pour le multirole est un "myth". Et tu dit "Il faut avouer que l'on peut toujours s'entendre, surtout sur le workshare..." mais c'est le point, on ne pourrait pas.

La France demandé des capacité à l'EFA que vous demandez aussi aujourd'hui... Et le montage industrielle peut toujours se négocier...

Il est un "myth" que l'Eurofighter n'a pas une capacite "multirole" dans le design [depuis Tranche 2, c'etait le plan depuis l'Eurofighter a commence - oui il est vrai que le RU va recevoir une capacite depuis Tranche 1 Block 5]. Le dispute entre le RU et la France dans l'EFA n'etait pas si multirole ou non-multirole. La dispute etait que la France demande 50% workshare et le "Leadership". Le RU a negocie mais la France ne change pas sa position! Et ca, c'est indiscutable. Avec leur position dans l'EFA vous n'avez pas gagner des copains. Et c'etait aussi l'Allemagne, l'Italie et l'Espagne qui disent que une "equal partnership" n'est pas possible avec les demandes de la France.

Nb : EFA + France ==>> 900 appareil à produire au moin !!!

Oui, mais avec un workshare du 50% pour la France c'est bon pour la France, mais une catastrophe pour le RU, l'Allemagne, l'Italie et l'Espagne. Un "fair" workshare etait moins de 33% pour la France [294/914]. Et a mon avis le pays qui va perdre en le marche d'avions est la France.

Des sources pour le 50% demande:

In addition they wanted a guaranteed 50% workshare and overall control of the project, these were of course unacceptable terms to Britain and Germany.

Eurofighter-Starstreak

The French negotiating position was just as inflexible as it had been before: France would be in the driver's seat, the aircraft would be a French design, built by a consortium with Dassault at the head and France as the absolute majority partner. Dassault would essentially parcel out such subcontracts as deemed necessary.

FAQS - Eurofighter Typhoon history

There were discussions with other potential European partners before and after this decision, but the French were insistent on developing a machine tailored to their own requirements, with France firmly in the driver's seat, and were not inclined to compromise.

FAQS - Rafale history