Achat suisse

[Teenytoon]

il y a 24 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

its a very interesting perspective that the F-35 which won on cost and performance would be concerned about "Saving face". It would seem the aircraft that did not win should be concerned about "face saving" and the people or government groups coming to their rescue via political process by picking european not based on cost or performance, but bias and preference would be the ones "saving face". they lost but got picked still luckily.  typically winners don't need to "save face" its the people who lose or are embarrassed that need to save face

And if they wanted to orchestrate results, why not just say they found a European option to be the winner, and then pick the winner and buy European? done in one step.  why the theater to say the F-35 is best? and then not pick it? I would rather not be picked than found to be insufficient publicly and picked. this is going to hurt Rafale and Typhoon down the road. Its better have things remain murky. In fact its better to lose and blame politics, rather than cost and performance shortcomings being brought out in public. What does this mean for Finland? or Canada? F-35 has yet to lose a tender, with the exception of south Korea that then bought it anyway, based on what they saw. They actually moved the price cap in order to acquire it. 

 

How can Rafale win in Finland now? or how can F-35 lose in Canada? They would have to directly find the exact opposite of what Switzerland just confirmed today. 

 

its Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon that should be concerned about Saving face, because they were just found to be behind F-35. again.

 

What are Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon going to do to "save face" now? appeal to the people to pay more and get less in Switzerland? the onus is now on the "not winning" machines to save face. or don't. pretend it didn't happen and then act surprised when they other nations find out the Swiss evaluation was what they found as well. 

 

once upon a time people said the F-35 wasn't as good. Then it got better and they said "that is alright, because we are less expensive" well it looks like now that is no longer the case either. If Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet, and Gripen can't beat F-35 on cost or performance, then I have some bad news. The only way they can win, is if the F-35 loses. Its the F-35s race to lose. it is ahead. I don't think Finland or Canada are going to have different evaluation results on cost or performance than Switzerland says. that Korea says. That Australia says, that Denmark says. Does anyone else think that? Canada and Finland will magically find completely different results than all the other F-35 nations?

You think that ALL the countries that bought the F-35 reduced their orders because it is the cheapest fighter to operate?

What a joke

[Sniper]

il y a 6 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

 sure why not? I'll agree and then I'll wonder why it was not more easily defeated. This is very much like a woman complaining about the man she used to date being "the biggest loser in the world" oh indeed, and you dated him

"if he is such an inferior specimen my friend, why is he beating you?" 

 

I am not surprised by this decision as it lines up with what many other nations have found. We can cry and make excuses, but I am not surprised by it. The F-35 has "lost" only once, in south korea to the F-15. they found F-35 to superior, but the F-35 exceeded cost. and then they adjust the price limit and picked the F-35.

its the worst thing in the world that everyone is buying. At one point maybe the observations, reach the brain. ego is a powerful thing. the brain will launch many counterattacks to protect itself. 

 

as my old sports coach use to say "if they suck, then you must double suck-- because they are beating you "

 

 

l'US Navy n'a pas voulu du F35, et de plus en plus, les commandes US baissent. Les nations qui choisissent le F35 le fond pour le bouclier Américain, pas sur les qualités de l'avion. 

Autant le F16 est un très bon avion, autant le F35 qui le remplace est raté, car voulut satisfaire des besoins si divergeant, que c'est techniquement inconciliable.

 

 

the US Navy did not want the F35, and more and more US orders are falling. Nations that choose the F35 fund it for the American shield, not on the qualities of the aircraft.

As much the F16 is a very good plane, as much the F35 which replaces it is missed, because wanted to satisfy needs so divergent, that it is technically irreconcilable.

[Napoleons_Bee]

3 minutes ago, Pousse allemand said:

Beware of automatic translators: The purpose of my message is that I am "optimistic" and "paranoid".

My hope is that the article is bogus, that the F35 lost but LM is using press relays to save face.

If the F35 has really won, it will indeed be the Rafale, Eurofighter and F18SH to save face on issues of cost and efficiency in particular.

The phony leaks in the press would not be a first in the arms contracts.

 

I apologize as I am indeed working through a translator, and no I am not declaring victory early. I am only reacting to what is being said, and what is being leaked. 

 

You are correct. one foot step at a time. 

1 minute ago, Teenytoon said:

You think that ALL the countries that bought the F-35 reduced their orders because it is the cheapest fighter to operate?

What a joke

What does this say for the Rafale in india? or do we acknowledge that things are complicated? I see Japan actually increased their order as well. so what are we to make of this? the Rules don't seem very consistent. 

[Sniper]

il y a 15 minutes, iborg a dit :

Euh... c'est sans doute exagéré. Le F-35 ne tue pas ses pilotes au même rythme que le F-104 dans la Luftwaffe.

Pour cela, faudrait qu'il vole :lol: Désolé, on n'est pas vendredi

Le F104 a été employé dans un domaine ou il n'était absolument pas fait pour cela.

 

Si j'étais médisant, je dirai que c'est encore un produit Lockeed

 

[Teenytoon]

il y a 12 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

The F-35 has "lost" only once, in south korea to the F-15

In Korea the Rafale won the technical evaluation. Then America put pressure and the Korean government gave in and bought American planes.

[herciv]

il y a 4 minutes, Sniper a dit :

les commandes US baissent

Pas d'accord. Elles ne baissent pas. L'USAF ne demande plus de cadeau de noël supplémentaire pour attendre le block4. C'est tout.

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par herciv

[Sniper]

il y a 1 minute, herciv a dit :

Elles ne baissent pas. L'USAF ne demande plus de cadeau de noël supplémentaire pour attendre le block4.

Par rapport au contrat initial, si.

[Spearfish1975]

il y a 8 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

 indeed, but the evaluation is horrific if reports are to be believed. 

 

this is an IF. of course. I reserve the right to be wrong. and I will admit it to be so when and if that time comes. however if the results do find F-35 to be both best, and least expensive, then I don't know what that means for others in other contests. 

 

I am not trying to be ugly or nasty. I am just not surprised when something like 12 nations pick F-35, and then that begins 13 nations. thats not exactly a massive shock to me. 

 

il y a 8 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

 indeed, but the evaluation is horrific if reports are to be believed. 

 

this is an IF. of course. I reserve the right to be wrong. and I will admit it to be so when and if that time comes. however if the results do find F-35 to be both best, and least expensive, then I don't know what that means for others in other contests. 

 

I am not trying to be ugly or nasty. I am just not surprised when something like 12 nations pick F-35, and then that begins 13 nations. thats not exactly a massive shock to me. 

The technical evaluation is one thing. at the end, it's a political choice. Shouldn't be that way

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par Spearfish1975

[Napoleons_Bee]

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

the US Navy did not want the F35, and more and more US orders are falling.

 

 

I remember when they "didn't want" the Super Hornet either.  Speaking of the Super hornet that line as expected to close by 2017, and yet here it is. F-35 line will be going for years and orders will come and go. 

 

Quote

Nations that choose the F35 fund it for the American shield, not on the qualities of the aircraft. 

 

Thats very possible. 

 

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

 

 

As much the F16 is a very good plane, as much the F35 which replaces it is missed, because wanted to satisfy needs so divergent, that it is technically irreconcilable.

 

One could look at the Rafale and say the same thing. It does a lot, and has big shoes to fill. I'm sure Typhoon fans say the Navy ruined the Rafale. or something. I don't even know if the Typhoon has fans

[herciv]

il y a 1 minute, Sniper a dit :

Par rapport au contrat initial, si.

Elles sont décalées dans le temps mais pour l'instant la cible des 1700 est toujours celle qui est évoquée.

[Napoleons_Bee]

4 minutes ago, Teenytoon said:

In Korea the Rafale won the technical evaluation. Then America put pressure and the Korean government gave in and bought American planes.

 

not what I heard, but thats fine. so its lost 1. 

[Teenytoon]

il y a 7 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

What does this say for the Rafale in india?

India has ordered 36 Rafales, all of which will soon be delivered. What else?

[jeannelaflamme]

Il est inquiétant que les dernières fuites renvoient à des choses bien plus concrètes ((affirmer que le F-35 a remporté les évaluations est très précis) que les précédentes. Par exemple, Le Matin a fait un 180 entre Rafale et F-35 en deux semaines. J'ai peur que Le Matin et A&C passent pour des idiots.

[Chimera]

il y a 2 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

I don't even know if the Typhoon has fans

It has John Lake at least.

[Kelkin]

Air & Couscous passe déjà pour des idiots.

[Teenytoon]

il y a 8 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

I see Japan actually increased their order as well.

Japan is the 51st US state since 1945.

[Napoleons_Bee]

5 minutes ago, Teenytoon said:

India has ordered 36 Rafales, all of which will soon be delivered. What else?

 

I thought the number started much bigger than that? like well over 100? we call that a "program of record" it is what you intend to buy vs what you have already ordered. technically all the F-35s on order are also delivered or will be soon. So what is the purpose of this exchange? the original plan in india was always 36? I think a basic internet search will find that to not be the case when MRCA was taking place and announced. 

New Delhi:  The Dassault Rafale fighter jet, manufactured by the French company Dassault Aviation, has won India's mammoth contract worth $10.4 billion, say sources. The Indian Air Force plans to buy 126 aircraft over the next ten years.

But I am new. I may be wrong. I am trying to listen 

 

36, 126 is this the argument we want to make?

 

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par Napoleons_Bee

[Spearfish1975]

à l’instant, jeannelaflamme a dit :

Il est inquiétant que les dernières fuites renvoient à des choses bien plus concrètes ((affirmer que le F-35 a remporté les évaluations est très précis) que les précédentes. Par exemple, Le Matin a fait un 180 entre Rafale et F-35 en deux semaines. J'ai peur que Le Matin et A&C passent pour des idiots.

oui bon,,, alors je peux te dire que Le Matin c'est limite tabloïd. Leur réputation ne va pas en souffrir. Air et Cosmos c'est autre chose, j'ai été surpris qu'ils publient un tel article

[herciv]

il y a 3 minutes, jeannelaflamme a dit :

Il est inquiétant que les dernières fuites renvoient à des choses bien plus concrètes ((affirmer que le F-35 a remporté les évaluations est très précis) que les précédentes. Par exemple, Le Matin a fait un 180 entre Rafale et F-35 en deux semaines. J'ai peur que Le Matin et A&C passent pour des idiots.

Ca c'est possible. Mais çà montre surtout que le processus politique qui va s'en suivre risque d'être très douloureux pour les gens du conseil.

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par herciv

[Napoleons_Bee]

Just now, Teenytoon said:

Japan is the 51st US state since 1945.

I guess we have a lot of US "states" then. one poster here says Japan is a state so that explains the order increase, another says the US is reducing orders

 

You can imagine my confusion. 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Compared to the initial contract, yes.

 

source please

[Chimera]

il y a 8 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

I guess we have a lot of US "states" then. one poster here says Japan is a state so that explains the order increase, another says the US is reducing orders

You can imagine my confusion.

Obidient nations buy the F-35, and other stuff in addition, whatever the cost may be, because that's the price to pay for protection.

The Japanese paid $79 million for navigation lights for their KC-46 as spare parts.

https://www.aerotime.aero/28113-japan-purchases-boeing-kc46-spare-parts-at-higher-price

On the other hand, the US Air Force is looking for a jet that actually protects America. As a result, it is walking away from the F-35.

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par Chimera

[Sniper]

il y a 11 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

I remember when they "didn't want" the Super Hornet either.  Speaking of the Super hornet that line as expected to close by 2017, and yet here it is. F-35 line will be going for years and orders will come and go. 

 

 

Thats very possible. 

 

One could look at the Rafale and say the same thing. It does a lot, and has big shoes to fill. I'm sure Typhoon fans say the Navy ruined the Rafale. or something. I don't even know if the Typhoon has fans

On demande au F35 de remplacer des avions comme le Harrier et le A10, et en même temps le F16. Meme le Rafale n'aurait pu etre ce qu'il l'est si on lui avait demandé cela.

Le cahier des charges étaient impossible à tenir, et a abouti à faire le F35, et aucune version n'est au final ce que le prédécesseur était.

 

Pour le Rafale M, il n'a en rien gaché le Rafale C, d'ailleurs, le F18 est bien un avion "Marine" employé à terre. Le C est allégé des éléments Marine et est encore un peu plus performant.

 

 

 

The F35 is being asked to replace planes like the Harrier and the A10, and at the same time the F16. Even the Rafale could not have been what it is if we had asked it to.

The specifications were impossible to keep, and resulted in making the F35, and no version is ultimately what the predecessor was.

For the Rafale M, it did not spoil the Rafale C in any way, moreover, the F18 is indeed a "Marine" aircraft used on land. The C is lightened by the Marine elements and is still a little more efficient.

[Napoleons_Bee]

Just now, Chimera said:

Obidient nations buy the F-35, and other stuff in addition, whatever the cost may be, because that's the price to pay for protection.

 

Why bother competing in clearly american markets with clear american winners? just wasting time and money? The people of Japan thank Dassault for their tourism. 

 

Quote

On the other hand, the US Air Force is looking for a jet that actually protects America. So it walking away from the F-35.

 Does this forum not actually look at USAF statements and budgets? 

 

[Chimera]

il y a 4 minutes, Napoleons_Bee a dit :

Why bother competing in clearly american markets with clear american winners? just wasting time and money? The people of Japan thank Dassault for their tourism.

Dassault won a competition in Japan for maritime patrol aircraft with Falcon 2000 MSA.

But Dassault was smart enough not to compete in Japan or Canada for fighter jets and never submitted an offer.

Modifié le 21 juin 2021 par Chimera

[Ronin]

Pouvez-vous arrêter le hors sujet ?

Et puis ici c'est un forum francophone, donc on parle français.