Que vaut vraiment le MiG-29?

[FULCRUM]

Je redis la meme chose que pour le F-16, on ne compare pas un mig 29 a un F-22 ou rafale ou autre appareil de derniere generation, il y a un sacre ecart tout de meme.

Faut que tu lise l'un de mes post en haut ou je precise noir sur blanc que les avion son different, que le Mig-29 c'est de la categorie des Mirage-2000 et F-16 et que le SU-30 c'est de la categorie du Rafale, EF-2000 et F-22 :evil:

Pour le Mig-29 il a un emplacement radar petit ce qu'il l'empeche d'avoir de radar puissant capable de detecté les F-22 pour le moment, mais avec la technologie qui sait?? peut qu'un jour......

[don_ccicci]

Ce que j'ai ecrit ne t'etait pas destine personnelement ;)

[FULCRUM]

Ah désolé ;) C'est que cette histoire Mig-29 VS F-22 me taquinne aussi :(

[Berkut]

Un missile furtif qui n'est repéré que lorsque il te râte :lol:

[FULCRUM]

Tant qu'il degage du feu et de la chaleur par ses fesses le missile ne sera jamais furtif :lol:

[Berkut]

Mais non, c'est surfait les réacteurs, ils battront des ailes les missiles du F22! Ou alors ils se téléporteront! :lol:

[FULCRUM]

Oh c'est trés sophistiqué ce truc! j'en veux 100! :lol:

[DEFA550]

Faut que tu lise l'un de mes post en haut ou je precise noir sur blanc que les avion son different, que le Mig-29 c'est de la categorie des Mirage-2000 et F-16 et que le SU-30 c'est de la categorie du Rafale, EF-2000 et F-22 :evil:

Ben non.

Les Mirage 2000 et F-16 sont des chasseurs mono-moteur de la classe des 8T. Le Mig-29 est dans une autre catégorie, celle des bi-moteur de 10-11T, ce qui le classe avec le Typhoon et le Rafale.

[don_ccicci]

Pour ma part quand je parle de classe c au niveau technologique

[Thor]

Salut je voulais juste preciser que le F-22 a été fabriqué sous l'égide de la fameuse theorie "100 vs 0", c'est à dire que les americains le presentent comme l'arme aérienne supreme face à tous les autres aéronefs militaires ! Je ne veux pas tomber dans la facilité, je ne connais pas pour l'heure la validité de cette loi militaire que viennent de nous sortir les Etats-Uniens, mais je pense qu'il serai pretentieux de dire qu'un MiG-29, sous quelque version que ce soit, peut vaincre à l'heure actuelle le Raptor ! N'oubliez pas n'en plus que le-dit avion est équipé d'un radar à Balayage électronique et en ce sont il est superieur en mode BVR à l'avion de MiG. Mais en ce bas mondetout est possible donc je laisse des incertitudes quant à l'objectivité ou la subjectivité de tous ce qui se raconte ici ou là.

[SR-71]

Comme j'ai dit pour le J-10 il est peut-être trop tot pour juger le F-22 comme le MIG-35 sont flanban neuf il sont trop récent. En BVR je Suppose que le F-22 est meilleur mais en dogfinger le MIG-35 aurait l'avantage.

[jeanmi]

L’Algérie va acquérir 70 avions de combat MiG-29 de fabrication russe pour un montant de près de 1,5 milliards de dollars. http://www.algerie-dz.com/article4031.html

[jeanmi]

03/ 02/ 2006 - Le Mig-29M en passe de remporter la compétition indienne pour 200 chasseurs? Le Mig-29M1/M2 (mig-35) serait en bonne place dans la compétition l'opposant aux F-16, Mirage 2000-5 et Gripen pour équiper l'Inde. L'Inde insiste en effet sur l'optention d'appareils équipés d'une antenne radar active et sur le transfert de cette technologie. Les américains proposent un F-16 avec une antenne radar active mais sans transfert de la technologie. Le Grippen est lui un candidat complexe du fait des nombreux équipements étrangers présents sur l'appareil (autant d'autorisations nécessaires à prendre en compte pour tout transfert technologique). Les français proposent le Mirage 2000-5 mais sans antenne radar active (contrairement au Rafale qui lui n'a pas été proposé par la France) ni transfert de cette technologie. Reste le Mig-29M1/M2 russe proposé avec antenne radar active et transfert de la technologie... Source: Avia.ru

[Hitmoon]

si c'est 200 MiG 29 M1/M2 (le MiG-35 c'est le MiG-29 OVT) je met ma main à couper qu'ils seront monté par HAL à bangalore ;)

[Wildcat]

Otez moi un doute de l'esprit: j'avais cru comprendre que Dassault avait décidé tout récemment de se retirer de la course, en Inde. C'est faux?

[Berkut]

Je crois que ça c'est pour le marché asiatique

[Wildcat]

Sinon, j'ai retrouvé ça: http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=5344

Donc, ce que je comprends, c'est que Dassault ne peut pas maintenir la chaîne de construction du Mirage 2000 indéfiniment, en attendant que l'Inde veuille bien se décider, ce qui fait que non seulement Dassault abandonne l'idée de placer le Mirage 2000 en Inde, mais en plus cela signifie alors que la production du Mirage 2000 est dès lors tout à fait close. :(

Après, vont-ils choisir de présenter le Rafale en Inde? Je sais pas...

[Hitmoon]

Je detere ce topic malgré l'avertissement du forum (rofl il me donne des injonctions lui !!! (veuillez penser plutôt à commencer un nouveau fil de discussion.)

J'ai trouvé un petit article qui parle en vrac du Zukh ME et Zukh AE (AESA) avec ses deux variantes

Concernant l'OLS du MiG 29 perso je suis assez décu, je pensais qu'il avait plus d'allonge, c'est en fait un vulgaire jouet...

SPECIAL REPORT

Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007

INTERNATIONAL DEFENCE REVIEW - APRIL 01, 2007

________________________________________

MiG showcases Indian MRCA offering

Russian aircraft manufacturer MiG unveiled the MiG-35 fighter, in the form to be offered to India for its multirole combat aircraft (MRCA) requirement, at the Aero India exhibition in February 2007.

The company also released extensive details of the radar, electro-optical sensor and other systems for the fighter at the show in Bangalore. The airframe is the well-known MiG-29M2 (no. 154), but the-MiG-35 electronics suite was put on display for the first time.

The aircraft's avionics system has been integrated into the fire-control and navigation system by Ramenskoye Design Bureau (RPKB). All of the devices are interconnected by a data bus compatible with MIL-STD-1553B and controlled by a computational system made by RPKB. The MiG-35's main fire-control sensor is the Zhuk-AE radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) made by Phazotron- Nauchno-Issledovatelsky Institut Radiostroeniya (NIIR) Corporation in Moscow. A mock-up of the preliminary variant of this radar was showcased at the 7th International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS exhibition at Zhukovsky in August 2005. The radar had a 700 mm diameter antenna made of 1,088 transmit-receive (TR) modules (272 packs with four modules each), but at 450 kg was considered too heavy. In the next design, the weight of individual components was reduced, cut-outs in the radar body were made and a light magnesium alloy used.

To further reduce the weight to 220 kg the antenna diameter was decreased to 575 mm and the number of TR modules reduced to 680 (170 packs with four modules each). An experimental Zhuk-AE radar (the previous planned designation Zhuk-MAE was abandoned) was made with this design at the end of 2006 and then installed on the MiG-35 shown at Aero India. Zhuk-AE was due to start flight tests in March as the first Russian radar with active electronic scanning and another prototype radar enter testing at the same time.

An initial batch of 12 Zhuk-AE radars is due to be manufactured in 2008. The first stage Zhuk-AE radar (also designated FGA29) shown at Aero India is a modernised version of the mechanically scanned Zhuk-ME radar fitted with new AESA antenna. It uses the Zhuk-ME radar computing system including data processor, signal processor and software as well as the clock generator. The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 radar can be built by converting Zhuk-ME radars. Phazotron-NIIR will probably offer this manufacturing option for users of Zhuk-ME such as Algeria, Eritrea, India and Yemen.

Threat tracking

The Zhuk-AE/FGA29 is a multifunction X-band radar (3 cm wavelength), which can track and engage air, ground and sea targets. The radar in its present form has a search range of 130 km against fighter aircraft with a radar cross-section of 5 m2.-Phazotron claims that thanks to selecting proper range between radiating elements, a ± deflection of the antenna beam was achieved without parasite side lobes. The radar can track up to 30 air targets and engage six of them simultaneously.

The second stage radar, designated Zhuk-AE/FGA35, will be fitted to production MiG-35 fighter aircraft. They will receive a new computing system and new multifunction wideband generator. According to Phazotron, these changes mean AESA technology can be better exploited and new radar operation modes introduced. Additionally, due to a reduction in the size and weight of the radar modules, the antenna mirror can be moved further away from the nose of the aircraft and its diameter increased. The FGA35 will operate with a 700 mm diameter antenna with between 1,000 and 1,100 TR modules. The present design suggests there will be 1,064 modules, but slight changes are possible. The range of Zhuk-AE/FGA35 will be 200 km (for a 5 m2 target). The radar will be capable of tracking up to 60 air targets and engaging six of them. All radar components were designed and manufactured by Phazotron-NIIR except for the TR module. Almaz-Phazotron in Saratov unsuccessfully tried to produce its own TR module in 2002.

Phazotron-NIIR engaged two companies from Tomsk Mikran and Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Poluprovodnikovykh-Priborov (NIIPP [scientific-Research Institute of Semiconductor Instruments]) to manufacture the TR modules. Mikran designs Russian MMIC circuits and TR modules, while NIIPP undertakes their production on an industrial scale. One Indian MRCA tender requirement is the transfer of fighter production to India. Phazotron-NIIR believes it can offer substantial opportunities for work on the production of the Zhuk-AE radar. Of equal importance for the MiG-35 are its two electro-optical built-in sensor unit the air-to-air OLS-UEM (Optiko-Lokatsionnaya Stantsiya [optical locator station]) system and the air-to-ground OLS-K (Optiko-Lokatsionnaya Konteynernaya [optical locator podded]) system.Both of the units were developed by NII PP (Nauchno-Issledovatelskiy Institut Pretsizionnogo Priborostroyeniya [scientific Research Institute of Precision Instruments Engineering]), which previously specialised in optical and laser equipment used to measure the trajectory of missiles and space stations.

Target alert

The OLS-UEM imaging InfraRed Search-and-Track (IRST) unit automatically detects and tracks air and surface targets, as well as showing the pilot an image of the target for recognition purposes.

The unit includes a 320 x 256 pixel thermal imaging camera and a 640 x 480 pixel TV camera. The optical path, with scanning mirror, is common to both cameras and protected by a semi-spherical transparent dome made of leucosapphire. The mirror scans airspace within the range of ± in azimuth and within -15/+60˚ in elevation (with respect to the aircraft axis). Air targets can be detected at ranges out to 45 km in tail-on position or 15 km in hea d-on position. The built-in laser rangefinder operates in two wavelengths 1.57 µm (eye-safe) for training and 1.06 µm for combat use. It covers distances from 200 m out to 20 km.

The whole OLS-UEM unit weighs 78 kg and its size is similar to that of the former OLS-29 EO unit of earlier MiG-29 aircraft, developed by UOMZ Company in Yekaterinburg. The prototype of the OLS-UEM locator was installed in the experimental MiG-29M2, which was modified to become the-MiG-35 prototype in 2006. The similar but simpler OLS-UE version is installed in Indian-MiG-29K shipborne fighters.

The OLS-K system is used to detect and track surface targets. According to NII PP, the OLS-K can detect a tank-sized target from a distance of 20 km or a motor boat from 40 km; the laser rangefinder measures distances out to 20 km. The optical channel, which is common to the IR sensor and TV camera, is installed under a hemispherical, transparent dome similar to that of the OLS-UEM unit. The device includes a laser rangefinder/target designator and a laser spot tracker. The OLS-K is installed inside a conformal pod that is 1.98 m long and weighs 110 kg, and is suspended under the starboard engine air trunk.The MiG-35 self-defence suite controls the warning devices (radar, optical and laser) and the electronic jammer, as well as the chaff/flare launchers.

This fully automatic system launches defensive measures and recommends evasive manoeuvres. The most urgent warning information is repeated by voice signal. The devices included in the self-defence suite have not yet been finally specified. The most probable candidate among radar warning receivers (RWRs) is the Indian Tarang Mk2 unit, which is the Indian Air Force standard. The Russian option is the L150 Pastel unit. The RWR has three antennas. Two of them installed on the wing tips cover the front hemisphere, whereas the third, installed on the tailfin, covers a 90˚ azimuth of the rear hemisphere. The infrared missile-approach warning device SOAR (Stantsiya Obnaruzheniya Atakuyushchikh Raket) has been developed by NII PP, as have the optical locators. The device has two sensors; the one under the portside engine air trunk watches the lower hemisphere, whereas the other, situated behind the pilot cockpit, watches the upper hemisphere.

The SOAR can detect the launch of a portable anti-aircraft missile from a distance of 10 km, air-to-air missile from 30 km and large anti-aircraft missile from-50 km. The device detects the launch of the missile and indicates the direction from which it is approaching.

The SOLO (Stantsiya Obnaruzheniya Lazernogo Oblucheniya) laser warning device, also designed by NII PP, has two sensors located on the wing tips covering 360˚ in azimuth. The SOLO device can detect a laser rangefinder tracking the aircraft up to a distance of-30 km and finds its angular position with an accuracy of 0.5˚. The operational range is within 1.06 µm through 1.57 µm and the device weighs 800 g.

MiG and Italy's Elettronica announced in Bangalore that they had co-operated on the integration of the self-protection jammer ELT/568(v)2 into the MiG-35 self-protection system.

Defence deployment

The ELT/568 unit covers bands H-J (on board section) and E-G (podded section). Two active-phased array antennas located in the wings' leading edges cover the front hemisphere, whereas the third, located in the root of the starboard tailfin, covers the rear hemisphere. The pod, installed under the portside outer wing pylon, has two antennas front and rear. Russian options for jamming units have not been declared, but one may be the SAP-518, made by Kaluga's Research Institute of Radio Engineering (KNIRTI), which also includes a high-band built-in section and a medium-band podded section. The MiG-35 will receive two 16-round 50 mm flare dispensers installed inside the tail beams close to the engines. MiG also announced that French systems have been considered for the MiG-35 self-defence suite, but did not provide details.

Piotr Butowski

[ZeusIrae]

Une petite etude  sur le Mig-29:

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29.htm

petit extrait qui en dit long sur l'entreinement à l'est:

"NATO pilots were quite amazed and confused over the fact that most of these East German "elite" pilots appeared not "care" about flying and had little interest in doing anything innovative with their training once they did get a chance to fly."

Pour le F-16, je ne sais pas d'ou vous sortez qu'il ne vaut rien.Le F-16 a été concue pour operer au-dessus de l' allemagne.

Rayon d'action et vitesse assez faible mais pour le peu que j'en sais  il est tout de même consideré comme un tres efficace en dogfight par les pilotes US.

[Hitmoon]

Moi j'ai vu aussi qu'un MiG 29 allemand avec AA-11 Archer et viseur casque a fait en exercice un 47 - 1 vs F-16 fitted AIM 9.

[ZeusIrae]

Oui mais tu parle d'un exercice récent non?Là ils parlent des pilotes enciennes version, en 1994.Et apparement c'etait pas jolie  à voir.Voilà l'extrait complet,c'est à la page 4.

To say that the communist trained East Germans were innovatively hampered by their own dielectric approach to training and operationally shackled by Russian authority as to "when" and "how much" to fly, would be a gross understatement. NATO pilots were quite amazed and confused over the fact that most of these East German "elite" pilots appeared not "care" about flying and had little interest in doing anything innovative with their training once they did get a chance to fly.

At the NATO F-16 Fighter Weapons Instructor's (FWIT-89) symposium, with a select gathering of Instructor Pilots (IP's), not just from NATO, but all over the world, the first face-to-face discussions were made with the Commander and tactical flight leaders of the Preschen Wing. The results were heart-breaking for those US & European trained pilots who sacrificed so much to stay on the razor's edge, although it was a relief to realize that clearly the Western approach to training was far superior. The average NATO pilot in that room had a far greater comprehension of the MiG-29's capabilities than did any of the MiG pilot's themselves. Almost all of the visitors spoke German and more than half Russian. There were no communication gaps, it was a straight forward pilot-to-pilot talk. The results were simple, the MiG pilot's perceived their flying tasks as a second or third priority to their personal agendas, which were first and foremost.

This must have impressed the Luftwaffe enough to be concerned about their security reliability. Soon after that, the decision was made to release almost all of the ex-East German pilots from the service and the units were re-organized or disbanded. But once the political decision was made to keep the MiG-29's in the German Air Force, the pressure from the Russian military and aerospace industry became intense as they tried to find any data that would support their claims of parallel or better suitability of the MiG-29 to NATO aircraft. In fact, what they are trying to do, was to take western experience with the MiG-29 and leverage it in the export marketplace. Fortunately, but not surprisingly, it has not been believed.

Comme quoi quand on parle d'avions faut jamais oublier l'entreinement.

[Zamorana]

En combat au corps à corps dans les années 80, à pilote égal, le MiG29 abat n'importe quel avion il a été conçu dans cet objectif, il surpasse n'importe quel appareil de sa categorie en terme de manoeuvrabilité et d'armement, missile ultramanoeuvrant et visée au casque.

A l'heure actuelle, ben tout dépend de la version, tout comme du pilote, mais ça reste un dogfighter redoutable, pour peu qu'il parvienne au contact, ce qu'aucuns MiG29 irakien ou Serbe n'a pu faire (et qu'aucun autre avion n'aurait pu faire de toute façon).

[Kiriyama]

Son gros problème c'est son radar qui tombe facilement en panne. Du moins pour les premières versions du Mig-29.

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Moi j'ai vu aussi qu'un MiG 29 allemand avec AA-11 Archer et viseur casque a fait en exercice un 47 - 1 vs F-16 fitted AIM 9.

Moi j'ai surtout vu que dès qu'on sortait de ce contexte d'emploi (1 vs 1 et seulement au missile IR courte-portée) les Mig-29 se faisaient laminés systématiquement!

Qu'il s'agisse de leur capacité look down/shoot down, BVR, ou même dès qu'on apsse en 2 vs 2, même en dog, la supériorité absolue du Mig-29 en prenait un coup!!

Si on rajoute à cela un niveau d'entrainement bien inférieur dans le Pacte de Varsovie comparé aux pilotes de l'OTAN, on comprend pourquoi les Soviétiques comptaient tant que ça sur la supériorité numéique!

Cela dit, le futur Mig-35 s'annonce excellent, du moins sur le papier!! Il souffrira sans doute de petites faiblesses en terme de fiabilité des équipements électroniques, mais bon, c'est le tribut de tout nouvel appareil. Après, c'est sur qu'en terme de radar et d'optronique, ce n'est ni l'APG-80 du F-16E, ni l'OSF du Rafale! Mais bon, pour le prix d'un de ses appareils occidentaux, il faut voir combien du Mig on peut se payer!!!

L'avenir nous dira ce qu'il vaut de toute façon!! Je lui souhaite en tous cas un avenir aussi prometteur que celui du Su-30!

[Kiriyama]

Le Mig-35 c'est un dérivé du Mig-29 ou un tout nouvel avion?