Rafale and other european jets [English only]

[DrSomnath999]

 

https://www.studyiq.com/blog/supreme-court-rafale-deal-burning-issues-free-pdf/

https://www.prsindia.org/sites/default/files/parliament_or_policy_pdfs/CAG Report Summary_Capital Acquisition in IAF.pdf

https://www.aspireias.com/uploads/rstv/8_OCT_In_Depth.pdf

price of each rafale for IAF with waepons and maintainence ,and with 50 percent offset clause comes around 230 million dollars per jet

Modifié le 6 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[Picdelamirand-oil]

il y a une heure, DrSomnath999 a dit :

 

https://www.studyiq.com/blog/supreme-court-rafale-deal-burning-issues-free-pdf/

https://www.prsindia.org/sites/default/files/parliament_or_policy_pdfs/CAG Report Summary_Capital Acquisition in IAF.pdf

https://www.aspireias.com/uploads/rstv/8_OCT_In_Depth.pdf

price of each rafale for IAF with waepons and maintainence ,and with 50 percent offset clause comes around 230 million dollars per jet

It's those who don't understand prices that say that, or those who don't want to understand.

[Hort]

Il y a 2 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

 

https://www.studyiq.com/blog/supreme-court-rafale-deal-burning-issues-free-pdf/

https://www.prsindia.org/sites/default/files/parliament_or_policy_pdfs/CAG Report Summary_Capital Acquisition in IAF.pdf

https://www.aspireias.com/uploads/rstv/8_OCT_In_Depth.pdf

price of each rafale for IAF with waepons and maintainence ,and with 50 percent offset clause comes around 230 million dollars per jet

That means nothing if these numbers are not compared with the price of others jets on same basis. This Rafale price is given as if others aircrafts were for free... But yeah, French are so arrogant they want to be paid. 

Furthermore Pakistan has given a great réaction to the recent landing in Ambala confirming the game changing: India wanted a game changer, it has a game changer.

[Teenytoon]

Sorry it's in French but this is the reference to understand that dividing the amount of a contract by the number of planes doesn't mean anything.

http://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2015/02/13/contrats-dachat-davions-comprendre-ce/

[Teenytoon]

Sorry it's in French but this is the reference to understand that dividing the amount of a contract by the number of planes doesn't mean anything.

http://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2015/02/13/contrats-dachat-davions-comprendre-ce/

[FATac]

Il y a 4 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

price of each rafale for IAF with waepons and maintainence ,and with 50 percent offset clause comes around 230 million dollars per jet

But, as stated in the PDF, the fly-away price comes around 90 million dollars per jet.

So the weapons, maintenance, base construction, instruction and so on is worth not less than Rs 25000 crore over the Rs 59000 crore G2G agreement.

Some of these costs will not be recurrent and some of these may be part of further contracts for more jets (and weapons, and airbase adaptation ...). It is just verry difficult to find what figure is relevant in order to compare plane acquisition costs. You have to compare on the same perimeter, so just define what is the right perimeter ...

Modifié le 6 août 2020 par FATac

[bubzy]

Il y a 3 heures, Teenytoon a dit :

Sorry it's in French but this is the reference to understand that dividing the amount of a contract by the number of planes doesn't mean anything.

http://www.portail-aviation.com/blog/2015/02/13/contrats-dachat-davions-comprendre-ce/

Mais qui est l'auteur de cet article merveilleux ? Qu'on lui envoie des fleurs, des chèques, qu'on lui décerne une médaille, la légion d'honneur !

[Lordtemplar]

At some point they need to be consistent with their claims.  The exact same argument can be made about a PL15 not being able to strike a Rafale (reduced RCS, Spectra etc..) at 200km.

The fact is that China has not demonstrated the effectiveness of J20, PL15 or their radar and guidance systems.  Whereas Rafale has demonstrated that it is fully operational and capable vs S200 in Lybia and S300 in Slovakia during Mace XIII exercise.

TBH i am not interested in chinese government's claims.  The lack of transparency and false information is astounding.  Just look at Covid 19. Yeah right! only about 80k cases and all is under control.  If it was it would not have spread across the planet!

Modifié le 6 août 2020 par Lordtemplar

[Teenytoon]

J'avais écrit au PR à l’époque pour qu’on remette une ONM à l’auteur mais je n’ai reçu qu’un autographe de Julie Gayet. Pas compris. 

[DrSomnath999]

members who are quoting my post regarding the price of rafale  per jet,perhaps taking it  in a -ve way i assume. But  i posted this on a basis of simple math not anything else and that too it is for IAF .

60000 crore deal for 36 jets each jet for india comes for around 230 million dollars per jet according to simple math no rocket science involve to prove it.

-Regardless of  the deal  price of rafale excluding weapons /external avionics suite / maintainience /support / is constant no matter who buys it [90 million dollars est ] can be 1   or  2 million dollar higher depending upon the inflation. 

https://www.sify.com/news/fact-check-are-we-really-paying-three-times-more-for-each-rafale-jet-news-columns-skdsLSaabhbce.html#:~:text=€94 Million apiece).,cost IAF €1.7 Billion.

Quote

 

Opposition party today blames the present Government to have increased the Rafale’s Price Per Unit (PPU) from the UPA negotiated of Rs 590 Crore to Rs. 1670 Crore. Though they never provided the basis of UPA finalized Rs 590 Crore. To understand if the present deal has made a dent on tax payer’s pocket, we must see (i) what amount India has agreed to pay and what we are getting from Dassault & (ii) what other customers (Egypt and Qatar) have paid.For fair analysis, the cost must be discussed in EUROs and not Rupee that has depreciated by 13% since the deal was signed.

36 Rafale would cost us around €7.8 Bn. GoI has not officially revealed the figures, however after signing the Rafale deal, a senior political leader of the ruling alliance, NDA held an off the record briefing with several journalists. On analysing deals struck by other customers of Rafale, figures given in that off-the-record briefing appears to be authentic.

Journalists were informed that IAF will get 28 single seat fighters (appr. €91.07 Million apiece) and 8 twin seat fighters (appr. €94 Million apiece). Total of just 36 Rafales (without weaponry, Indian Specific Enhancement, life cycle cost etc.) would cost €3.3 Billion.

India-Specific Enhancement (required by the IAF) would cost IAF €1.7 Billion. IAF will pay €1.8 Bn for spare parts and engines, €700 million for weaponry and €350 million for `Performance based logistics`, which will ensure that 75% of the Rafale fleet remains operationally available. All these add up to make the remaining €4.5 Bn.

This is the breakup of complete €7.87 (3.3 + 4.5) Bn deal - €218 PPU. The question still remains - if NDA paid more than the UPA negotiated deal?

The answer can be found if we get to see the similar break up of UPA negotiated deal. As per available information, UPA could never complete the negotiation. Neither they are producing any details of the allegedly finalized price of Rs 590 Crore a piece.
 

But if we compare our deal with Egypt or Qatar, we might get some answer. In 2015, Egypt signed a deal with France for €5.2 Bn for 24 Rafales, 1 FREMM warship (a Frigate) and weaponry (a number of short/medium range missiles). With no 75% Servicebility assurance, Special Enhancements, TOT or Offset clause, Egypt purchased Rafale at €210 million a plane. Qatar placed an order of 24 Rafales for €6.3 Bn but with extensive weapons, training (included training of 26 pilots and 100 technicians) and maintenance programme. Qatar paid €262 million apiece with no Special Enhancements, TOT or Offset clause. India on the other hand paid €218 million for each Rafale with 50% Offset, no TOT but with India Specific Enhancements. These enhancements include integration of Indian and Israeli equipment and as Vishnu Som explained - `the India specific upgrades include a Low band jammer, a towed array decoy system, additional modes and greater resolution in the main radar and the Front Sector Optronics System of the jet.

` These make Indian Rafales technologically superior to the Rafales in French Air Force. Had we placed an order with no Special Enhancement as Egypt or Qatar did, Total cost of the deal would have been €6 Bn and we would have got Rafale at appr €171 million apiece, much cheaper than Egypt or Qatar.

 

 

 

CHEERS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Modifié le 6 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[DrSomnath999]

https://en.218tv.net/2020/08/06/intervention-in-libya-escalates-accusations-between-paris-and-ankara/

 

Intervention in Libya escalates accusations between Paris and Ankara

 

 

https://eurasiantimes.com/s-400-vs-rafale-turkey-to-deploy-russian-s-400-missile-to-counter-french-rafale-jets/

 

 

 

 

S-400 vs Rafale: Turkey to deploy Russian S-400 Missile to counter French Rafale Jets

India would be keeping a close eye as French-built Rafale jets could take on Russian-designed S-400 air defence systems in Libya. India is set to acquire both S-400s and Rafale jets as Turkey looks to protect its interest in Libya

 

S-400 missiles vs Rafale jets could soon be a reality as Turkey could possibly deploy Russian S-400 air defence systems in Libya to counter the French & Egyptian air force which includes the Mirage and Rafale jets. 

[DEFA550]

Il y a 1 heure, DrSomnath999 a dit :

60000 crore deal for 36 jets each jet for india comes for around 230 million dollars per jet according to simple math no rocket science involve to prove it.

Correct. But that doesn't mean each jet costs that much. Bells and whistles don't come for free, you know.

[DrSomnath999]

34 minutes ago, DEFA550 said:

Correct. But that doesn't mean each jet costs that much. Bells and whistles don't come for free, you know.

It's not my fault if you can't understand or lazy enough to read the sentence posted below that part you quoted in my previous post which I posted.

CHEERS

 

Modifié le 6 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[jojo (lo savoyârd)]

people who criticize only the price the price of a fighter plane is that they have no arguments against the plane itself ... which means that they admit that the plane is efficient and that they have no argument concerning possible weaknesses. It is therefore an admission of weakness in the argument that could demonstrate that the aircraft is not efficient. There is therefore more than the argument on the price to sweep, which should not be very complicated ...

[Patrick]

il y a 5 minutes, jojo (lo savoyârd) a dit :

people who criticize only the price the price of a fighter plane is that they have no arguments against the plane itself ... which means that they admit that the plane is efficient and that they have no argument concerning possible weaknesses. It is therefore an admission of weakness in the argument that could demonstrate that the aircraft is not efficient. There is therefore more than the argument on the price to sweep, which should not be very complicated ...

[Lordtemplar]

14 hours ago, DrSomnath999 said:

S-400 vs Rafale: Turkey to deploy Russian S-400 Missile to counter French Rafale Jets

This article sounds like sensationalism,  we will see.  Also this article makes a lot of assumptions.  France is not flying Rafale missions in Lybia.  Is the s400 really impregnable? We saw that Patriot was fairly ineffective vs Iranian drone attacks on oil facilities in Saudi Arabia not so long ago. 

AFAIK we still do not know what asset was used to attack the airbase in Lybia, plenty of speculation but not many verifiable facts (unless i missed something)

I think this article forgets to consider some important points:

First of all the S400 in Turkey were recently delivered, and their operational status is questionable since training is probably ongoing

Secondly there are UN, NATO and EU arms embargo on Lybia.  Moving the S400 there would be a flagrant violation of these.

Thirdly Russia supports Haftar and has its own planes there (via some cover of Wagner). I doubt they would remain passive if Turkey tried to do this.  Knowing that Turkey is a volatile country under Erdogan and that Russia's gamble to disrupt Nato internally could backfire, i would not be surprised if the Turkish S400 are not equipped with some sort of backdoor or are degraded export version. I doubt Russia would want to take the chance that Nato gets to inspect the S400 from up close since the S400 is an important aspect of Russia's national defense strategy.

Seeing how S200 (in Lybia) and S300 (Slovakia Mace exercise) were not able to shoot Rafale while other Russian air defense like Pantsir seem to be fairly ineffective in both Lybia and Syria, one can wonder how good the S400 really is and how it would do vs a Rafale/SCALP combo.  S400 did not stop Scalp in Syria when UK, US and Fra launched some missile attacks on Assad after the chemical weapons accusations, neither has it stopped Israeli air strikes against Russian allies in Syria.

Lastly, It would be a tragedy for Turkey if something "unfortunate" happened to the ship transporting the S400 from Turkey to Lybia.  Shit happens, or in the immortal words of Trump "it is what it is" 

My 2 cents

Modifié le 7 août 2020 par Lordtemplar

[Lordtemplar]

Interesting article.  In fact it may be Turkish F16 which may face Russian S300/S400 in Lybia. 

Pictures have appeared on social media which seem to confirm this.  The fact that Russian Antonovs recently made trips from Russia to Lybia reinforces this possibility

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/35460/new-intel-indicates-russia-may-have-sent-s-300-or-s-400-surface-to-air-missiles-to-libya

[bubzy]

In fact, they know absolutely nothing. 

[DrSomnath999]

This article is from AIR INTERNATIONAL JUNE 2019 edition .
This was a special article exclusively on rafale .I have made a pdf of all this pics into a single pdf file please download it before Aug 22 2020 before it expires

LINK
https://smallpdf.com/shared#st=1faefc62-7ae1-4183-9b27-caaf57f0691e&fn=rafale+special.pdf&ct=1596889885978&tl=share-document&rf=link

Modifié le 8 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[Patrick]

Thanks @DrSomnath999, I don't recall reading this before. 

[DrSomnath999]

1 hour ago, Patrick said:

Thanks @DrSomnath999, I don't recall reading this before. 

well henri pierre grolleu articles are wonderful .I am a big fan of his articles .He is a great journo  published many articles in Air fan and air et cosmos magazines 

 

 

CHEERS

Modifié le 8 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[DrSomnath999]

interesting french pdf source i found can anyone translate it english 

REGARDS

https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/noel_paglia_tenenbaum_armees_menaces_2018.pdf

FRANCE 's SEAD model

Please translate this in english

 

Modifié le 8 août 2020 par DrSomnath999

[DrSomnath999]

one of the best french websites on rafale

https://omnirole-rafale.com/

 

CHEERS

[Cougar133]

intéressant la ligne ou ils parlent du combo Meteor/RBE2 AESA et la réallocation de cible en plein vol ... de quoi faire fermer leur gueule aux proTyphoon-Gripen et le two-way link soit disant absent du Rafale ? .... 

[Patrick]

Il y a 5 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

interesting french pdf source i found can anyone translate it english

REGARDS

https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/files/atoms/files/noel_paglia_tenenbaum_armees_menaces_2018.pdf

The pdf is protected meaning instead of copy paste it to DeepL or google translate, it would take a while to recopy and translate the content by hand.

What particular themes or passages are you interested about? There's a lot of info.