Rafale and other european jets [English only]

[bubzy]

Il y a 12 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

You quoted and replied to an insufficient part of my post .rather you should have quoted and replied the complete sentence of my post.which is if they gift old Rafales not new ones like f2 standard planes.i don't think France would be so generous to gift new ones for free.

CHEERS

 

Please, read or read again the topic on the scalability of the Rafale. You will understand why a normal statement when you talk about differents standards with all fighters on earth don't work with Rafale. From F2 to F3R, and all intermediates standards, you can upgrade a Rafale with a simple computer in few hours. Then, all equipments in it are plug&play.

 

That's why, if it is not the case yet (i don't know), all the Rafale in the french air force must be in F3R standard. 

Thats not the case for a Typhoon which have to return to the factory to change internal equipments between to major standards. Even for F16, Mirage2000, or any other airplane. But not Rafale. 

So, a Rafale delivered 10 years ago, compared to a new one, both have the same ability to fight. 

Il y a 9 heures, PolluxDeltaSeven a dit :

:D That's my article ;)

I wrote this almost a year ago,

And for each articles written from your hand, we need almost a year to read them. XD

 

[DrSomnath999]

On 8/30/2020 at 11:59 PM, wagdoox said:

 

I didnt not reply to that since we don’t have any f2, we can talk about t2. And no france will not give weapons unless france itself is directly threatened. Making this a very likely fake news and therefore unworthy to comment. How could we sale anymore rafale to anyone if we give to some, we will need to give to all.

well if you trust this source or not ,  i will let you decide this time 

 

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27763/Greece_to_Buy_10_Rafale_Jets__Receive_8_More_as____Donation____from_France#.X058blUzbIU

Btw i am too lazy to find out which tranche of rafale planes bombed alwatiya airbase recently.I hope it might be f3 standard 

i wish france  does the same to us looking at current scenario with the chinese.

CHEERS

[

On 8/31/2020 at 2:26 AM, PolluxDeltaSeven said:

:D That's my article ;)

I wrote this almost a year ago, but sadly we sill have no further (confirmed) details about the F4 standard. We'll probably have to wait to know more. 
But don't forget that there are other upgrades currently in development that are not part of the F4 contract (but could/will be integrated on the F4 nevertheless). And there are even more options for export customers !

merci 

please keep those sort of  articles coming from yourside in future also.

 

CHEERS

 

Modifié le 1 septembre 2020 par DrSomnath999

[DrSomnath999]

On 8/31/2020 at 12:09 PM, bubzy said:

Please, read or read again the topic on the scalability of the Rafale. You will understand why a normal statement when you talk about differents standards with all fighters on earth don't work with Rafale. From F2 to F3R, and all intermediates standards, you can upgrade a Rafale with a simple computer in few hours. Then, all equipments in it are plug&play.

 

That's why, if it is not the case yet (i don't know), all the Rafale in the french air force must be in F3R standard. 

Thats not the case for a Typhoon which have to return to the factory to change internal equipments between to major standards. Even for F16, Mirage2000, or any other airplane. But not Rafale. 

So, a Rafale delivered 10 years ago, compared to a new one, both have the same ability to fight. 

 

 

the point of what tranche of rafale france have doesnt matter  ,what matters is what will be the gifted rafales  be to greece if true .? if f3R is given then it must be very costly thing to donate .if downgraded then a claim by you

So, a Rafale delivered 10 years ago, compared to a new one, both have the same ability to fight.

 

shall be taken with a pinch of salt .as enemy have upgraded their airdefences  and interceptor jets wthin this 10 year time . and also price of upgradtion for a country like greece whose econoimic condition is not so good shall also be taken into consideration.Simple aesa upgradtion is not so cheap even if it plug and play type .

 

CHEERS

[FATac]

il y a 45 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

Btw i am too lazy to find out which tranche of rafale planes bombed alwatiya airbase recently.I hope it might be f3 standard 

F3 or F3R, it can't be anything else as other standards (F2 and F1) don't exist any more.

il y a 23 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

the point of what tranche of rafale france have doesnt matter  ,what matters is what will be the gifted rafales  be to greece if true .? if f3R is given then it must be very costly thing to donate .if downgraded then a claim by you

At this point, the gift has still to be confirmed. When confirmed, if confirmed, then the question of the standard will be of interest.

il y a 23 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

shall be taken with a pinch of salt .as enemy have upgraded their airdefences  and interceptor jets wthin this 10 year time .

But Rafale which are inline in various Air Forces have continuously been upgraded so they are all at the same standard, with the same abilities.

So, the type of the radar (AESA or PESA), of the SFO (with or without IR channel) and the Missile Departure Detector is only a choice of optionnal component as the Rafale built in 2005 has the same ability to use them as the Rafale built in 2020.

[bubzy]

il y a 53 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

shall be taken with a pinch of salt .as enemy have upgraded their airdefences  and interceptor jets wthin this 10 year time . and also price of upgradtion for a country like greece whose econoimic condition is not so good shall also be taken into consideration.Simple aesa upgradtion is not so cheap even if it plug and play type .

Not so cheap, i agree. Even one flight hour will cost me an arm, and i will never be able to pay for it. 

But you have to compare. If you have a fleet of Mirage 2000 (only an example). And you want to upgrade the radar. You'll have to make architectural studies, make a prototype, develop new softwares, eventually change the electronic devices. Then, you will have to send each of the planes you want to upgrade into a facility, and ground it for few weeks, but maybe for few months. 

In comparaison, you will have a fleet with software easy to develop (if you want to have a specific version only), but you can also "buy" new standards developped for the main consumer (France, but maybe India in the next century ?) You will upgrade all your fleet in few days, without the need to ground any aircraft. If you have 100 aircraft with a need to have 50% of availability, you can only buy 50 AESA radar in your example. Or less. All planes don't need to get this specific device to achieve their mission. 

And there is a think you've forgot also. Now, like in computing, devices are not anymore the key of the game changer, but the software skills. Jamming and remote code attacks are made with the sames devices, but with evolved softwares. And that also, is included in the price.

Plug&Play, virtualisation, scalability are the real game changer into a fleet of warplanes.

[wagdoox]

Il y a 1 heure, DrSomnath999 a dit :

i wish france  does the same to us looking at current scenario with the chinese.

that is exactly my point and why I don't believe this "news" 
a news whom pretend to know who bombed the turks ... and what kind of planes 


India will require 150 rafale free to buy 10 new ;)

Modifié le 1 septembre 2020 par wagdoox

[Hort]

il y a une heure, DrSomnath999 a dit :

i wish france  does the same to us looking at current scenario with the chinese.

Et voilà ça commence...

And there it goes... free baguettes for all

[wagdoox]

Il y a 1 heure, Hort a dit :

free baguettes

c'est gratuit, c'est l'état qui paie 

[DrSomnath999]

12 hours ago, FATac said:

 

But Rafale which are inline in various Air Forces have continuously been upgraded so they are all at the same standard, with the same abilities.

 

wrong rafale sold to other countries are usually of F3R standards or eg specially india's own customization standard .so no question of upgradation arises till now 

only the rafales in french airforces have been upgraded becoz it is very easy to upgrade and they have it from beginning from t1 ,t2 standards.

 

upgradation has some limits to fullfil one's requirements if upgradtion can achieve all objectives then france wouldnt have invested in next gen planes .

 

CHEERS

 

 

12 hours ago, wagdoox said:

that is exactly my point and why I don't believe this "news" 
a news whom pretend to know who bombed the turks ... and what kind of planes 


India will require 150 rafale free to buy 10 new ;)

what i believe is french is using this ploy to avoid direct confrontation with turkey.They are using this ploy to immediately  deploy rafale and use it against turkey if situations demand.No country gifts theirfrontline planes  just like that .

other countries would also demand like that .If that case then india should be the 1st priority than greece.India has more economic future than greece

 

CHEERS

 

 

[Kelkin]

il y a 19 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

other countries would also demand like that .If that case then india should be the 1st priority than greece.India has more economic future than greece

India is not in the European Union, and already has five Rafales on its territory, with four more to come the next month.

 

I still don't believe that the "eight free Rafales" rumor is accurate. I could see, perhaps, eight aircraft being lent until the bought aircraft can replace them. But Greek pilots would still need some time to learn how to use the aircraft first, so there would be a delay anyway.

[wagdoox]

Il y a 2 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

If that case then india should be the 1st priority than greece.India has more economic future than greece

enough with the free shit rampage, French isn't a Bernie with ak47 for all billionaires will pay for. 
India already got free Jaguars and cheap M2K but those were retired planes.

Il y a 2 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

what i believe is french is using this ploy to avoid direct confrontation with turkey.

That's not even the issue since the greek rafale would not enter in action in the next month and war could irrupt any day now. 
It's a move to fuel Dassault's production line and it will give Greece a longer range.

Il y a 2 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

they have it from beginning from t1 ,t2 standards.

nop the T1 or F1 had a hardware upgrade but yea every export was F3 or F3R.

Modifié le 2 septembre 2020 par wagdoox

[bubzy]

Il y a 4 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

wrong rafale sold to other countries are usually of F3R standards

What is wrong ? Fatac told you that planes could remain up to date. Nothing to manage with your statement... Rafale sold to other countries are in specific standards based on the current standard of production + some modificatoins requested by the customer. Egyptian Rafale where delivered into F3o4T main standard. First because they where picked up from planes initially built for french air force, and then because F3R came 3/4 years later. 

Il y a 4 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

or eg specially india's own customization standard .so no question of upgradation arises till now 

only the rafales in french airforces have been upgraded becoz it is very easy to upgrade and they have it from beginning from t1 ,t2 standards.

French navy (and not air force) have requested to obtain some Rafale in an earlyer standard level because they had to replaces very old Crusaders. The computing system, softwares and even some missiles where not the same than the first "real" standard delivered to the air force in 2007, the F2 one. 

We are often talking about F2, F3, F3R and soon F4 standard, but in fact the systems are continually keep up to date with a lot of intermediate standard that give new capabilities. 

Il y a 4 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

upgradation has some limits to fullfil one's requirements if upgradtion can achieve all objectives then france wouldnt have invested in next gen planes .

Yes, but limits are pushed verry far away. French air force will continue to get some new rafale in the next 5 to 10 years, and the planes remains operationnals during 30 years at least. SCAF is not really (not only) a next gen plane. It is a next gen air combat system. And some of its systems will be integrated into the Rafale.

So, France didn't stopped to invest money in R&D for developping new capabilities for the Rafale and, we hope, a new airframe that should arrive in the next 20 years. 

[Patrick]

Il y a 6 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

wrong rafale sold to other countries are usually of F3R standards or eg specially india's own customization standard .so no question of upgradation arises till now 

You don't understand what the "R" means. It means "renové" (sorry mixed up, thanks to @Kelkin it is apparently "road-map", anyway, and is a french standard only.

The fleet went through substandards F3, F3.1, F3.2, F3.3, F3.4. Then came the latest french tranche of Rafale which were "F3O4T" which was a specific substandard for this tranche only.

F3O4T meant "traitement des obsolescences, 4ième tranche" ("obsolescence treatment of the fourth tranche", basically new computer hardware "blades" for the MDPUs, these MDPUs being called "EMTI" in french).

 

Read:

 

 

 

Here's a reminder: only 9 Rafale F1 were produced, for the navy, they all got re-cabled (a work that lasted 10 years) and were all F3 when getting out of factory again.

A part of the job was modifying the MDPU, or as we call them in France the "EMTI", for "Ensemble Modulaire de Traitement de l'Information", or "Modular Assembly for Information Processing" which is basically a translation of "Modular Data Processing Unit".

THERE ARE NO HARDWARE ARCHITECTURAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RAFALE VERSIONS SINCE F2. ONLY NEW ELECTRONIC CARDS WITH FASTER CPUS, MEMORY, AND SO ON.

F2.1 and F2.2 were already mostly software based.

 

Here's the architecture of a Rafale MDPU.

 

F3R was designed to bring the F3.4 Rafale standard to the same standard as the last Rafale aircrafts of the 4th tranche, the F3O4T.

It does NOT means aircrafts weren't compatible with each other in terms of subsystems, just that you basically had to "reinstall" specific softwares when doing the swap.

Export Rafale aircraft are ALL F3O4T technically because they were produced when this standard was on the line, and we don't manufacture different standards of the same aircraft.

Read:

So even the 28 remnant FRENCH Rafale of the 4th tranche that still must be delivered to France but were put on hold to free the production line plots for export customers (India) will be "F4.2-ready".

 

Export Rafale also came with all the gimmicks considered non-essential with the F3O4T, like the IR way of the OSF, while still keeping the OSF-IT ("Improved Technology") TV way which, in the french case, supposedly "replaced" the IR way (the orange "ball").

That is just one example, and again, everything is plug&play in the Rafale, this is easily replaced, added, removed, etc.

Many Rafale actually fly with a placeholder instead of an OSF when the need does not arise.

See here:

OSF IR + TV:

 

OSF-IT where the "ball" is a placeholder (TV ONLY, F3O4T configuration and also indian configuration)

 

Placeholders only:

compare with both:

 

Indian Rafales are NOT F3O4T, since technically they are already capable of being brought to the F4.2 standard, in a classical "fitted for but not with" configuration.

However as you saw they kept a part of the F3O4T with the OSF-IT only.

 

The best hint they're of a different standard being the panels on the side of the nose and the jammer at the front top of the vertical tail fin. These are AIRFRAME differences by the way, which aren't present on other Rafale previously manufactured.

 

So you could consider the indian Rafale "pre-F4". Or F3.X if you want. Whatever.

Sure they have at least (in fact way much) the same functionnalities than an F3R french Rafale, but they are definitely NOT F3R.

 

To this day neither egyptians not qataris need to be "F3R", because their jets were already of the latest F3.4/F3O4T standard when they were delivered in 2015. So they were already at the same level as the F3R...

The F3.4/F3R standards, french or export, will be capable of being upgraded to F4.1 at least, and there is a debate in the forum to consider if they will be able to be upgraded to the F4.2 standard.

Since apparently, judging by the appearance of the indian Rafale and its new subsystems, the F4.2 will need structural modifications of the airframe of the jets, as well as a partial re-cabling.

There's the whole story.

Modifié le 2 septembre 2020 par Patrick

[Kelkin]

il y a une heure, Patrick a dit :

You don't understand what the "R" means. It means "renové" and is a french standard only.

I remember reading it was for "roadmap" as it was the completion of practically everything that had been originally planned.

For F4 standard there's a question of changing the airframe slightly which means that most of the existing aircraft will need to go through refit if you want to fit them with the latest equipment, while this was not needed to go from F2 to F3R.

[Patrick]

il y a 29 minutes, Kelkin a dit :

I remember reading it was for "roadmap" as it was the completion of practically everything that had been originally planned.

For F4 standard there's a question of changing the airframe slightly which means that most of the existing aircraft will need to go through refit if you want to fit them with the latest equipment, while this was not needed to go from F2 to F3R.

Apparently yeah. My bad.

Doesn't change the fact it's about bringing all of the previous standards to the same one. And it is french only since only in the french air force does this situation exists!

[DrSomnath999]

9 hours ago, wagdoox said:

enough with the free shit rampage, French isn't a Bernie with ak47 for all billionaires will pay for. 
India already got free Jaguars and cheap M2K but those were retired planes.

I presume or hope , that  No one is forcing you ,atleast not me to beleive it is true . 

i hope this website  is a forum not personal blogspot where someone cant post anything  which doesnt  suits some member's mentality or belief.a reputed defence website if post such things then it is their fault or problem .

 

CHEERS

 

 

---

Modifié le 2 septembre 2020 par DrSomnath999

[wagdoox]

il y a 28 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

I presume or hope , that  No one is forcing you ,atleast not me to beleive it is true . 

i hope this website  is a forum not personal blogspot where someone cant post anything  which doesnt  suits some member's mentality or belief.a reputed defence website if post such things then it is their fault or problem

Ahahah no
don’t worries you are welcome to post as you like so am i.
It’s just that the news is so obviously fake i need to play like im being trolled ;)

(if its true i’ll look as an idiote but not as much as the fr gov)

[DrSomnath999]

7 hours ago, bubzy said:

What is wrong ? Fatac told you that planes could remain up to date. Nothing to manage with your statement... Rafale sold to other countries are in specific standards based on the current standard of production + some modificatoins requested by the customer. Egyptian Rafale where delivered into F3o4T main standard. First because they where picked up from planes initially built for french air force, and then because F3R came 3/4 years later. 

 

 

What did he post read  that carefully then post such accusations like that  does qatar and india have undergone any upgradation yet .

7 hours ago, bubzy said:

So, France didn't stopped to invest money in R&D for developping new capabilities for the Rafale and, we hope, a new airframe that should arrive in the next 20 years. 

i never said they didnt .Upgradation will never fulffill every requiremnet to cope up with future threats .

It is just to keep up with new threats 

 

CHEERS

 

 

[wagdoox]

il y a 2 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

It is just to keep up with new threats 

No you can forcast threats and update your plane even before the threats is actually in service. 

[DrSomnath999]

Just now, wagdoox said:

No you can forcast threats and update your plane even before the threats is actually in service. 

it has limits 

upgrade has to be evaluated also in real time ,only claiming such things is not enough 

CHEERS

 

Modifié le 2 septembre 2020 par DrSomnath999

[bubzy]

il y a 7 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

it has limits 

Everything have limits. You Can put this comment on every post. In any context. Even if you don't understand. Nothing will go forward, but you will look smarter.

Try it. 

One exemple :

"- danger in calling the classical transformation “Galilean” is that students begin to believe that Galilei's principle of relativity is somehow limited to the classical transformation and classical mechanics, thus neglecting its universality

-it has limits"

one other:

"-Darling, what do you think if i buy this New car for my mother ? Maybe it could be useful for her!

-it has limits"

 

[DrSomnath999]

9 hours ago, bubzy said:

Everything have limits. You Can put this comment on every post. In any context. Even if you don't understand. Nothing will go forward, but you will look smarter.

 

 

 

it is not my fault if you cant properly comprehend and understand someone's view or post in logical and rational way and what context specifically someone is posting his views, but no rather posting unneccesarry accusations has become habits of some without proper understanding or reasoning himself of that issue 1st.

 

Quote

No you can forcast threats and update your plane even before the threats is actually in service. 

so if someone post such a thing and  you expect just updating your existing system would have solve  this issue then no country will invest in future new gen warplanes .

then mirage 2000 upgradation would have solve the issue why the french made rafale then .

plus you yourself need to test those upgradations it works in reality or not in actual combat or field trials 

the french have done R/D for rafale in many techs department ,but have they introduced every studies and research in rafale.Some work and some dont 

so they dont introduced it on rafale .

 

 

 

CHEERS

 

Modifié le 3 septembre 2020 par DrSomnath999

[DrSomnath999]

https://www.theweek.in/columns/prasannan/2020/08/06/licence-to-make-licence-to-kill.html

[bubzy]

il y a 41 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

it is not my fault if you cant properly comprehend and understand someone's view or post in logical and rational way and what context specifically someone is posting his views, but no rather posting unneccesarry accusations has become habits of some without proper understanding or reasoning himself of that issue 1st.

Maybe i understood but you don't want to try to understand what we are saying. Don't forget also that there is a huge difference in culture between or both countries. I know it because i work with indians all the day, and we have lessons to know how to react, how to talk, and what are the difference of perception of a same situation between a french and an indian. Is quite interesting. So, don't talk about "accusations" it is simply our way to debate. 

il y a 41 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

 

so if someone post such a thing and  you expect just updating your existing system would have solve  this issue then no country will invest in future new gen warplanes .

then mirage 2000 upgradation would have solve the issue why the french made rafale then .

The explanation is verry simple and your example verry good.

1- A Mirage 2000 with the same avionic systems of those present in the Rafale could be deadliest as the Rafale. And in some case, more. Because it was designed as an interceptor. So, what we will change if we have the same systems but a different airframe ? A lot of things: Range, weapon carriage, carrier ops, acceleration, speed, and global aerial performances. 

You wil observe that for now, since 1980, and in comparison to the previous years, the airframe did not evolve so much. Because of our global knowledge, we where not abble to find a useful gap on airframe compared to older ones. For sure, when you compare a Rafale to a F16, there is a gap. But not so much. Both airplane can today fight eachother, and the main point is not regarding the airframe but the avionics systems. 

To conclude this point, you can upgrade you avionic without limit, you will able to reach very good level of war capabilities.

 

2- Mirage 2000 and Rafale are not in the same range of weight. France have changed of warplane category by switching from many light aircraft devoted to single roles to much heavier aircraft able to perform all the missions. It was a huge tactical and even strategical change for the air force. For this reason, it is hard to compare but it will give you much more context. 

3- So, why french have built a new airplane ? For many reasons. First, you can observe the average delay between older generations of airplanes. 
Mirage III where operationnal in 1961. 12 years later, the Mirage F1 came in 1973. 10 years later the 2000 came in 1983. Then, for a lot of reason, first of all is the end of the URSS, French air force waited 24 years to introduce the Rafale in 2007. And Scaf is now expected in...2040. So 33 years later. Why ? 

With an airframe like Rafale, wich is not anymore a light aircraft, you have a good platfrom able to carry any system of weapon you want. But at the edge of 2040, the needs will evolve, and it should be better to build a new airframe. Passive SER is much more easy to design, thanks to computing simulation. Engines have evolved too. And avionic architecture may start to reach limits on actual airframe. 

Other point is that you'll HAVE TO built new planes, because airframe have limited lifetime. So... why build Rafale instead of new and fresher planes  ? There is an industrial logic also. You must stay competitive regarding other country, so you have to spend money over R&D, new industrial tools, and so one. If not, you wlll loose knowledge and ability to design planes. It is verry important.

 

4- I t is not verry comparable for many reason, but you can observe the difference of the upgradation process to switch standard from your old 2000-i to the last standard, and how many month it take to change the complete avionics system. ALL the electronics equipments have to be changed, all wire and connectivity have to be removed, and some change have to be performed into the airframe. (but also, because these planes have a lot of flight hours, they take the opportunity to check all the internal structure.

For Rafale, and for the moment, it designed to change and/or upgrade Radar antenna, radar system itself, OSF, DDM, compute systems (storage, CPU, Ram), but even the software without the need to return to a facility ! Do you see the gap in overhall fleet management ? 

il y a 41 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

plus you yourself need to test those upgradations it works in reality or not in actual combat or field trials 

i don"t understand

il y a 41 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

the french have done R/D for rafale in many techs department ,but have they introduced every studies and research in rafale.Some work and some dont 

so they dont introduced it on rafale .

you have different level of studies. Some are very high level studies and are made to explore some domains and maybe they will find that a solution will never be applicable in reallity. A lot of studies have been integrated on Rafale so far. But between first and exploration studies to new operationnal capabilities, the delay could reach more than 10 years or more. That why some studies and PEA launched 10 years ago will maybe (or not) enter into F4 standard or future ones.

Then, i already told you that for the SCAF, it is not a studie of a new airplane, but a studies on system of systems. In that particular context, the airframe itself is only a tool. It is why some stuff developed into the SCAF context will be integrated also into Rafale and Typhoon. The airframe have loose is much less important than before. 

 

What i'm trying; whith that post and the previous ones, to change your mind about how to think when you are talking about a warplane. I want to give you a context for understand better how France, with a specific architecture design for evolving easily is a real REAL game changer. 

il y a 41 minutes, DrSomnath999 a dit :

CHEERS

 

Cheers too !

[Kelkin]

Il y a 4 heures, DrSomnath999 a dit :

it is not my fault if you cant properly comprehend and understand someone's view

Keep in mind that nobody here has English has their first language.

 

Yes, the threat landscape evolves with time, and so the countermeasures have to evolve too. That's why the Rafale, just like any other combat aircraft maintained in active service, goes through regular standard upgrades. But yes these upgrades are done not so much to react to the threats of today, but to prepare to the predicted threats of tomorrow. The point of the upgrades isn't to catch up, it is to stay ahead.