Rafale and other european jets [English only]

[prof.566]

Not really, but Tornado are ageing...

 

Did you notice something a few years ago Typhoon fans said "everything is better" now they say everything will be better....

Modifié le 12 décembre 2014 par prof.566

[DrSomnath999]

Not really, but Tornado are ageing...

 

Did you notice something a few years ago Typhoon fans said "everything is better" now they say everything will be better....

Heee hee 

 

you took my bait dont you  :oops:

 

well some indian posters like Sancho  do beleive that Typhoon would be able to induct Captor E with GaN module with EA capabilty by 2020 

 

due to delay in signing MMRCA deal  its better for india now to take Typhoon tranche 3A/B variant  with better radar capabilty with functional IRST which makes it  better on A/A capabilty with better active /passive detection capabilty & plus with good air to ground capabilty in close in air support for troops & SEAD missions both with better PGMS like spear & storm shadow

 

 

& he  beleive france should have partner india in developemnt of F3R which is for french requirement basically but rather joint 

development of MLU/F4 variant would have been better & realistic partnership for india & france both

 

but unfortunatley france wont give GaN tech at the moment to us  may be for MLU neither india IAF has requirement for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa radar at the moment

 

but good news might be  Isreali PGMs would give us a tremondous boost in rafale  F3I  official designation of india rafale

 

after it's french forum nothing wrong to disclose such things

 

CHEERS 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

well some indian posters like Sancho  do beleive that Typhoon would be able to induct Captor E with GaN module with EA capabilty by 2020 

 

due to delay in signing MMRCA deal  its better for india now to take Typhoon tranche 3A/B variant  with better radar capabilty with functional IRST which makes it  better on A/A capabilty with better active /passive detection capabilty & plus with good air to ground capabilty in close in air support for troops & SEAD missions both with better PGMS like spear & storm shadow

 

& he  beleive france should have partner india in developemnt of F3R which is for french requirement basically but rather joint 

development of MLU/F4 variant would have been better & realistic partnership for india & france both

 

but unfortunatley france wont give GaN tech at the moment to us  may be for MLU neither india IAF has requirement for EA/ESM version of rbe 2 aesa radar at the moment

 

but good news might be  Isreali PGMs would give us a tremondous boost in rafale  F3I  official designation of india rafale

 

after it's french forum nothing wrong to disclose such things

 

CHEERS

 

Sancho doesn't want to understand that cooperation with India has to start after something has been signed. And during the negociation time we cannot stop the Rafale development ! It would be the same with Typhoon (except that Typhoon is generally late).

 

Typhoon better Radar capability has to be demonstrated. It's true that a bigger antenna make easier to reach good performance, but RBE2 AESA with 1050 T/R have the same performance than AN/APG-81  with 1400 T/R so it 's not obvious that E-Captor will outperforms the RBE2. Nobody knows how many T/R they will take, because it's possible to put more than 1500 but they try to reduce the cost!

For GaN it's the same story, there is no problem to use them but the cost is very high because there isn't civilian use and the demand is too low for production at low cost.

It's why we plane to use them first in SPECTRA at relatively short term and then in RBE2 AESA but only when the cost will decrease. Looking at the budget problems of Typhoon program I doubt a lot that they will be able to induct GaN before us. And the concept fit better with a small nose than with a larger one.

 

I don't think that Israelien PGM improves Rafale capabilities.

Modifié le 13 décembre 2014 par Picdelamirand-oil

[DrSomnath999]

BHARAT CRAPNAD is back with a bang 

this time more fantasy stuff in his latest article

here are some 

 

There are operational reasons as well why Rafale will be a liability. The IAF has always been wary of buying foreign aircraft accessible to its Pakistani counterpart. This was a reason for the rejection of F-16s as MMRCA given that they outfit the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) strike squadrons. Now consider this: Dassault is ****-a-hoop about the likely purchase by Qatar of some 66 Rafales. The Qatari Air Force (QAF) has traditionally been run by PAF pilots, with the understanding that these squadrons will switch to PAF use in any conflict with India. So, IAF Rafales will go up against Pakistani-flown Qatari Rafales that potentially will be better equipped and periodically upgraded with more sophisticated sensors, avionics, and weapons that Saudi Arabia will happily finance, as it did the $500 million deal for PAF’s F-16s and Pakistan’s acquisition of nuclear weapons and missile technologies from China. The Gulf regimes, after all, consider the Pakistan military their palace guard.

 

And, Rafales cannot be effectively used against China either. Why? Because, firstly, it will not survive sophisticated Chinese air defence; secondly, Dassault won’t allow the indigenous Brahmos supersonic cruise missile to take out targets inside China from standoff range to be integrated with it; and thirdly, because the Rafale is a compromised system for another reason. Pakistan is the prime conduit for Western military, especially aerospace, technologies to China. A Qatari Rafale will be disassembled in Pakistan for Chinese engineers to scrutinise, or wing its way to a Chengdu Aircraft Industry Groupsite for its best features and technologies to be reverse-engineered and incorporated in Chinese combat aircraft, and otherwise permit the Chinese military to familiarise itself with its technical weaknesses and configure appropriate counter-measures and counter-tactics.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/colu...cle2699390.ece

 

 

thats why B.CRAPNAD is so awesome in defence journalism

CHEERS

[Patrick]

I think this is just Public Relations and nothing else. Did someone told this guy Qatar has mirage 2000 too ? Isn't he worried either that Chinese J11 are very close to Indian SU30 MKI ?

 

Don't worry DrSomnath, we're pretty much used to this level of Rafale Bashing from biased people. The more they bash, the more biased they are, the more the people who read what they write, even those a bit biased, can see their blatant lies and attempts to "control the damage" induced by their biased bashing.

 

The best thing that could happen to IAF now is the Rafale. They know it, Modi knows it, Dassault's adversaries on the market know it.

 

They always acted this way against the Rafale : they ignored it, they laughed at it, then they fought it, then Rafale won.

 

...If this reminds you something. ;)

Modifié le 6 mars 2015 par Patrick

[DrSomnath999]

I think this is just Public Relations and nothing else. Did someone told this guy Qatar has mirage 2000 too ? Isn't he worried either that Chinese J11 are very close to Indian SU30 MKI ?

 

Don't worry DrSomnath, we're pretty much used to this level of Rafale Bashing from biased people. The more they bash, the more biased they are, the more the people who read what they write, even those a bit biased, can see their blatant lies and attempts to "control the damage" induced by their biased bashing.

 

The best thing that could happen to IAF now is the Rafale. They know it, Modi knows it, Dassault's adversaries on the market know it.

 

They always acted this way against the Rafale : they ignored it, they laughed at it, then they fought it, then Rafale won.

 

...If this reminds you something. ;)

hehee

 

appropiate reply has already been posted   ami !

 

http://indiandefence.com/threads/terminate-the-rafale-deal.53203/#post-453164

 

CHEERS

[gwossepatate]

I'd like to answer in this indian defense forum, but I signed in but they say that I have insufficient rights to post a reply !!!

Hey Doctor, have you a clue ? ;)

[zx]

you must do some post before you can reply to someone

Modifié le 8 mars 2015 par zx

[DrSomnath999]

Interesting fictious article from OSCAR from defence.pk

guys have a read 
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 670
& continued here
Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2] | Page 52


now
for readers SD 10A is known to have HOJ feature i can post the source for that also 
so someone doubting how SD10a get a lock on tejas & destroyed it .
it can be also possible .
Jamming is a double edge sword it can save you from a missile & can get yourself killed by HOJ mode BVRAAM missile 

Both LCA & rafale currently have on board jamming system 

question LCA JINGOs like B.Crapnard would ask ??

Q-Is the author nuts or is paid by dassault group to write this article??
as how the heck rafale could save his A$$ from SD 10A & meanwhile LCA couldnt as both are having on board jamming????

ANS
Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection. 

meanwhile in future if we take 2020 timeframe by that time rafale would have installed expendable RF decoys project LEA


which would give off board jamming capabilty to rafale which would help rafale to dodge HOJ missiles with ease in comparision to on board jamming systems
Rafale News: Rafale developement, TRAGEDAC and LEA

CHEERS

[DrSomnath999]

COngrats  to Dassault aviation & IAF 

 

on signing the deal for RAFALE  .

 

 

CHEERS

[fox49]

Your Prime minister sure have the thing for announcement!!! (impossible for me to continue my android coding since 04/09/15)

[DrSomnath999]

Ladies & gentlemen!! hold your breath 

The legendary Bharat Crapnard is back , this time more interesting arabian night fantasy stuff in his article
Unexpected windfall for France with Rafale?


.....This new turn of events, it may be deduced, was apparently something derived by the PMO that Narendra Modi, perhaps, assented to in line with MEA’s view that Paris needed to be mollified with bulk purchase of the Rafale to maintain goodwill with the French govt. Besides, it is a add-on to the initially floated proposal for some 24 Rafales bought off the shelf to stop the squawking about fast-depleting fighter squadrons by the IAF brass.This deduction because Parrikar’s MOD could not have turned around a full 180 degrees after the minister had shown his partiality for the Su-30MKI option, with the HAL Nasik produced aircraft available at around $80-$100 million per fully loaded plane. Now compare that with the $4bn India will be dishing out for 60 Rafales, i.e., at almost $50 million unit cost. Except this figure is just for the platform with no bells and whistles and no onboard armaments, and certainly no AESA radar. Once you begin totting up the costs for each of these items, the final bill for each of these Rafales would be nearer $200mn. For Dassault and France this is surely an unexpected windfall, something they could’t have possibly even imagined coming to pass, because Dassault gets to produce all these aircraft and no nonsense about TOT, etc involved by bringing HAL into the picture. The French combat aircraft industry pivoting on the Rafale, which was down to producing just 11 of these planes annually, will now be able to ramp up production and keep itself in the clover for another 8-10 years thanks to the infernally stupid decision by the GOI. .......
http://bharatkarnad.com/2015/04/10/unexpected-windfall-for-france-with-rafale/

i think he also forgot to add jet fuel , pilots salary & G suit ,HMD, rafale's paint & tyres , then it would become 300Mn $ for each rafale .Is in't Mr B.Crapnard

Thats why B.Crapnard is so awesome in the field of defence journalism

CHEERS

[prof.566]

Is the guy completely stupid or simply paid???

[Rufus Shinra]

Is the guy completely stupid or simply paid???

Why "or"?

[FATac]

Is the guy completely stupid or simply paid???

 

I guess we can assume that he is simply stupid and completly paid. :)

[Chatokay]

Is the guy completely stupid or simply paid???

 

 

I guess we can assume that he is simply stupid and completly paid. :)

Also, genetics I would say.

Crapnard…

[DrSomnath999]

 

GUYS need your help

 

can you plz certify that this translation of mine from this pics are correct , if wrong plz correct it

 

 

 

RAFALE IN INDIA

 

NEW DELHI CAN NOT WAIT

 

 

NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN DASSAULT HAL AND ARE IN NEUTRAL ON LOCAL PRODUCTION OF 108 UNITS.

 

PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA, VISITS PARIS, JUST TO ANNOUNCE THE ACQUISITION OFF THE SHELF 36 RAFALE.

 

Gone are the dark years for Dassault Rafale export . Egypt could have served as a trigger for the export of French flagship. After Cairo, New Delhi just voted for a shelf purchase of 36 French aircraft, no technology transfer. While the Team Rafale (Dassault, Thales, Safran) is

exclusive negotiations with India for three years for the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Air-craft) for 126 Rafale, 108 products in India, the statement of Prime Minister Narendra Modi, on an official visit to the Elysee, April 10, surprised everyone.

 

For India, the equation is simple: the negotiations between Dassault and New Delhi are blocked

for months on the question of the liability of aircraft out of the local production chain, while the Air Force is in urgent need of new combat aircraft, "crucial", in the words of Minister of India. It must be said that the French Rafale should replace a very aging fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 dating from 1960-1970, which records a very high attrition rate.

 

REGIONAL POWER.

 

However, India, regional power, is facing a tense strategic context. There Pakistan, of course, that puts nemesis for applying and adapting F-16 performance, and that the territorial dispute over Kashmir is still open, but more importantly, there is China. Chinese expansionism deeply upset New Delhi. The two countries share more than 3,000 miles of land borders with areas of tension. But the war of power between the two most populous countries in the world is also played on the seas.The Chinese ships incursions in the Indian Ocean irritate New Delhi, who intends not to be done. In this, the Rafale will be a real strategic power tool.

 

The reasons for the acquisition of the French Indian surprise hunter are there: to have a long-range strike capability, deterrant, mainly oriented towards China. Because, equipped with a type of Scalp cruise missile several hundred kilometers of reach, India, with the Rafale, is capable of striking deep cry inside Chinese territory..While in this air-sea configuration with an Exocet missile, the Indian Air Force will also act very effectively against any Chinese building intrusion into its territorial waters, and make the Indian Ocean remains India In this context, the statement of intent to acquire 36 fighters is not so surprising, corresponding to a 36 aircraft fleet.

 

QUESTIONS.

 

Still, this announcement raises many questions.At First, it is only a statement of intent. No contract is signed yet. State-to-state negotiations will open on the 36

 

rafale which will set the price, armaments or delivery. A contract could be signed this summer, although negotiations with the Indians are traditionally difficult. If, as a rule, the first deliveries occur three years after signing the contract, New Delhi might ask to shorten these deadlines.. But the big outstanding question is: what happens to trading on the 126 planes under negotiations for three years? If this first contract for 36 Rafale, no technology transfer is successful, will

the MMRCA program be impacted . Because in the end, the need for the Indian Air Force remains. These first 36 jets will not allow India that wait without discredit, pending the arrival of a fleet of modern aircraft.

.

BREATH OF OXYGEN.

For the French defense, the contract will be a breath of fresh oxygène.While it still lacks more than € 2 billion to balance the budget in 2015 of hosts, thanks to these deliveries, the Air Force could see its own deliveries pushed back in favor of those of the Indians, which would ease the French financial burden ...

 

Three is "assured Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, about a possible sale of Rafale United Arab Emirates, on his return from a visit to Riyadh. But there is also Qatar and Malaysia ... The first sales of the Rafale could trigger other. For more interested customers sign later, the more they will have to wait to receive their jets...

 

Guillaume Belan

 

 

in the box part

 

 

India does not give up making Rafale

 

While the Indian Defense Ministry was negotiating with Dassault, it | will now discuss with the French Government for the purchase of additional aircraft beyond the 36 Rafale announced on 10 April. "Negotiation government to government is more suitable than the tendering procedure by" justified the Indian Defence Minister, Manohar Parrikar, on 13 April. New Delhi hopes to quickly finalize talks with Dassault hanging for three years.

 

For now, the change of interlocutor does not change the terms of trading on the MMRCA contract. Interviewed by "Air & Cosmos," Sitanshu Kar, spokesman of the Indian Ministry of Defense does not exclude 108 aircraft

 

Rafale are manufactured in India, as stipulated in the tender Initial. "India has not yet decided whether to buy other Rafale shelf or whether they will be assembled at home," he says. A point confirmed Laxman Behera, researcher and expert in "Procurement Code" at The Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses, New Delhi Strategy: "The negotiation of government-to-government does not mean abandoning the production of Rafale in India . "Technology transfers are always possible. The researcher believes, however, that from now on, the French government, not Dassault, who will take responsibility for delays or manufacturing defect.

 

 

MMRCA: challenges for local production

 

EVEN IF INDIA DO NOT ABANDONED TO PRODUCE AN IDEA OF THE DAY BURST, PROCUREMENT ON SHELF 36 DEVICES DEMONSTRATE THAT SEEMS TO LOCAL INDUSTRY IS STILL MOVING TO PRODUCE THE HUNTER DASSAULT.

 

The Indian aviation industry is progressing. This is the Eric Trappier, President of Dassault, and Pierre-Eric Poinmellet, de'finies Vice President, pounded on March 25 during delivery to the Indian Air Force First Mirage 2000 modernized. Progress, certainly, but still seem insufficient to ensure on-site production of such a complex device Rafale. In our preview edition of Aero India show,

 

Stéphane Lauret, president of Safran India highlighted the problems related to qualified labour .He felt that there was such a real lack of adequate training for careers in aviation in India.

 

The SUKHOI EXPERIENCE.

 

India has, however, already licensed product of western aircraft such as the Jaguar. Today, industrial HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd) also produced locally Russian Su-30MKI. In both cases, same approach was adopted. Initially, the industry

India has merely asembler subsets books by foreign industry before gradually increase its involvement in production of devices . If the Jaguar in the 1980s and in 1990 ended up being entirely locally made, there remains doubts about the real involvement of Indian industry in the production Su-30MKI.

 

Even if the planes would currently produced fully in India, its level of complexity is not comparable to the Rafale.Indeed, the Flanker is a plane using mainly hydraulic  mechanics.

on the contrary, rafale is a plane using mainly electrical and electronic systems .

 

To show the generational leap from Flanker and Rafale, we can highlight the board oxygen system. On board the Rafale, oxygen for the pilot is generated by a system boards, while the Sukhoi Su-30MKI is equipped with oxygen tanks. The onboard oxygen generation system increases the battery life but it is more complex to produce.

 

 

POINT LOCK.

 

The establishment of industrial resources necessary for Rafale production in India is very complex. As stated Eric Trappier, Dassault Rafale and partners team can build on their already ancient settlement and their local partners. But the scale of the Rafale license requires to expand greatly the cooperation with India.

 

Dassault is ready to be involved much more in India, and agreements to this effect were found with HAL. The sticking point concerned the guarantee of the quality of the devices produced in India. Given the magnitude of the task, it is understood that the French manufacturer has been reluctant to take charge of the quality of these.

 

 

The order for 36 Rafale products in France will allow India to quickly have a fully operational system, and so meet the needs of the Indian Air Force. It also saves time for possibly prepare the longer term production in India of French fighter.

■ Emmanuel Huberdeau

 

 

 

 

[Gallium nitride]

Yes, it seems to be  a good translation with little "bugs" anyway but not about the meaning, only gramatical, AFAIK.

For instance, the right translation for "chasseur" is not 'hunter" but "fighter", etc...but it is quite understandable for those who know a bit about warplanes.

Modifié le 18 avril 2015 par Gallium nitride

[DrSomnath999]

Interesting find from KEY pub forum

 

A single engine fighter concept of rafale  for serbia 

 

interesting

 

 

 

[Gallium nitride]

It's an old story : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Avion

[iborg]

There it is, full transition of PD7's huge Bourget article !

First, I’m writing down these tidbits here, not in a porail-aviation.com article for several reasons : either the collected informations weren’t cross-checked (obtained through a single informant for ex), either these revelations were done « off » microphoneor during the public days when I didn’t have my journalist hat, or because they’re consolidated from informations obtained through different interlocutors without them directly validating the analysis.
That said, I think I know the subject and if I talk about specific elements or give my analysis ; that’s because I deem them correct.

There may be redundancies too as I took notes across several days from several interviews, knowing that Tmor already alluded to things in my presence, that I didn’t write again here.
If I forgot something, it will come back and I’ll put it down later.

Enjoy the read, leave your questions if you have any, I’ll try to answer them in time.


About OSF and LDP

The TV channel in OSF-IT doesn’t bring extraordinary gains in pure performance (compared to the one of the older OSF) as the optic’s diameter didn’t evolve. Yet it remains one of Rafale’s biggest features, unique in the Western world, allowing visual identification day-night by purely passive means, unlike the NTCR mode of legacy radars.
The TV channel of the IT version still operates in near-IR which makes it practically all-weather (at least day-night), and the tool is truly appreciated both in air to air and air to ground, for telemetry as well as long range identification.

The lack of dedicated IR channel in the new version isn’t really a problem : first because the IT A2A scan function of the latest MICA is more efficient than the old OSF with IR channel, then because the Damocles pod’s FLIR is more than decent for navigation, finally because the tracking functions (including A2A) are better managed by Damocles or the new TV channel than the old IR one.

The Damocles pod cannot do wide scan but can rally on an AWACS (through L16) or radar track for ex. Its range is simply one of the world’s best even if it suffers from some drawbacks short range that will be corrected with the new Talios pod. Even if I didn’t get specific figures, it seems that the AASM-Laser + Damocles combo offers one of the longest ranges, if not THE longest in the world (moreso when the pod allows accurate targeting of a fast-moving target).
So yeah, it may not be the best pod in the world for very short range CAS, but for zapping incoming landing barges, mobile SAM sites or a well-defended armored column, it looks really nice ! If Talios brings along better short range capability without compromising long range performance, it promises to be real good.

The air to air functions of the pod aren’t fully integrated to the sensor fusion though, as viewing the pod’s optical take is done on one of the touch screens and not integrated in the VTM (Visualisation Tête Moyenne, the big center display just under the HUD where the fused tactical data is shown to the pilot, we’ll get back to it later). The MICA scan tracks OTOH are integrated to the VTM and truly serve as A2A FLIR.
Lastly, regarding the passive scan and track, the old IR channel of the OSF had the advantage mostly of being fully integrated to Spectra whether for scanning or tracking. But it was also frustrating in that its resolution was much lower than the pod’s and one was eventually rallying the latter to the obtained track in order to gain better ID. This meant working on the pod-dedicated screen than the fused VTM data, but is no more penalizing than on any other fighter using this kind of tech and, if the result takes a bit longer than with the old IR channel, in the end it’s much more satisfying. Then, the current solution isn’t necessarily more time-consuming, both the LDP and OSF-TV allow positive visual ID of the target at longer range than OSF-IR.
Today, scanning is done through the MICAs and « another sensor » (IMHO the DDM-NG, as I doubt the Damocles FLIR can do it, but if someone can correct me I’d be delighted) whereas tracking will be done through the TV channel or Damo depending on target distance, attitude and nature (you don’t deal the same way with a nap-of-the-earth helo and a high altitude bomber).
In fine, scanning is done transparently for the pilot. Unless he asks for it, he won’t know if the track comes from a MICA, Spectra, DDM or a combination of several ; Spectra manages sensors and threat prioritization.
For tracking though, the pilot retains the choice of using the best mean to achieve visual ID.

Now, I only compared the old IR channel to the new TV ones, to Damocles pod, MICAs etc and one could wonder what it would be worth compared to a hypothetical new generation IR channel. The problem is, an IR sensor even latest gen, inside the OSF would never have the same dimension as the one in Damocles (and later Talios) so the feeling of frustration leading to using the pod’s would likely endure. Since the Rafales are meant to fly in OPEX (actual combat deployments) most often with a LDP (at least one per patrol) it seems more interesting to invest in a better pod (and in sufficient quantity) and also better sensors for MICA or DDM-NG rather than an IR OSF channel that doesn’t fit the best compromise overall.
This seems to be the way explored now.

I asked if one could imagine a new sensor in place of the aerodynamic ballast currently present in OSF-IT (I was thinking a fixed DDM-NG-like but front staring), I was told that nothing was planned for now, and the old OSF shape was preserved because the need to not disturb the aerodynamic flow in this zone, the pitots being located right below.


Rafale vs Typhoon :

OK, I’m not going to teach anything to you, I’ll only say again what i’ve been told for more than 4 years now : the Rafale today is significantly superior tot he Typhoon and it won’t stop tomorrow. And if this seems like an evidence in A2G, it’s also true A2A, even today.
The Rafale is largely more maneuverable than Typhoon, thanks to its aerodynamics as well as its FBW which is the aircraft’s big strength.
But the Typhoon, well handled, remains formidable. If the Rafale doesn’t take the upper hand rapidly (which rarely happens, rest assured) the Typhoon can use its superior power to gain the advantage through more reactive vertical maneuvering. But this isn’t supposed to happen, outside a mistake by the Rafale pilot, given equal pilot level. This was said to me textually, without any bravado, only to explain me how well they thought of the FBW, so that’s rather reassuring. In any case, the Typhoon doesn’t impress much, on the contrary. At best, it looks like a Mirage 2000 with a bit more brawn and missiles going a bit farther, nothing more.
In BVR, Rafale sensor fusion and MMI seem truly in a class of their own and do offer a formidable advantage in terms of quick decision making, tactical positioning, but also learning : the « partition » is the same played A2G or A2A (same keypresses to acquire/designate/shoot a target, on the ground or airborne) allowing a pilot specializing in A2G to quickly become very good in A2A as well.
Nevertheless Typhoon climbs higher faster, and once « perched » knows how to play its strengths : orbiting high and fast, using its high off-boresight radar to look low and in the corners, and has missiles with a longer reach, especially fired from HA. It isn’t unbeatable but if the opposing Rafales are in A2G config they lose some of their own advantages in terms of RCS (radar cross section) and maneuverability. But apparently it’s not dramatic either : the strengths (and therefore tactics) of the Typhoons are similar to the Mirage 2000–5F, therefore in A2A config the Rafale pilots have well rehearsed tactics to balance things versus Typhoon. And with the AESA it’s even easier.
More or less, as usual, listening to the pilots they’re afraid of nothing, estimating that even the F-22 is « takeable » in dogfight. In BVR they would have liked to « test » the F-22 but nobody wants to reveal their cards in this era : neither the French or the Americans.
Indeed, the basic BVR tactic with the usual ROE consists in detecting the intruder on radar or via L16 then establish visual detection on OSF-IT, which seems to have a rather long range. One could feel they were burning to see the Raptor drivers’ faces after they received a MICA-IR volley from fourty klicks away. But that’s not for the here and now.
The most I could extract was what I was already told several times : AMRAAM has a f$cking good range especially the latest versions. On a good platform (F-15C with AESA retrofit, Typhoon etc) flying high and fast, it should never be taken lightly. But in the end it all depends on ROE. Most of the time, NATO ROE require positive ID of the target, and often visual positive ID. In this game Rafale and its « small » MICA often fare better than F-15 and F-16 with AMRAAM since positive ID for these relies on very low discretion radar modes (and which can be jammed) and visual ID relies on… the pilots’ eyes.
Which explains why Rafales in very low altitude penetration mission sometimes could shoot their attackers before the latter could : because OSF-TV allows long distance visual ID (given the same ROE for everyone, which isn’t always the case, but let’s not spend 107 years splitting those details).

Two things however : many unpleasant surprises in dogfight could have been avoided with an HMD and according to the pilots I could talk to, this is really the most lacking equipment today, both A2G and A2A, far more than additional thrust, vectoring nozzles or anything else.
Moreover, it was confirmed that MICA performance, especially of their seekers and terminal agility, weren’t realistically simulated during exercises, as DGA wants to hide the missile’s actual capabilities (but also those of DDM-NG and Spectra, I was confirmed). Despite all that Rafale already doesn’t fear anyone in actual operations or exercises, even though a certain French plane-maker whose name we won’t say would like Armée de l’Air to show the aircraft’s guts a little more, so that they could communicate about it with potential prospects.
Commercially speaking, nobody at Dassault hides the technical and technological quality of F-16E and its evolutions, which remains an excellent aircraft, well designed and having received remarkably good upgrades.

Small regret, I’d have enjoyed talking to a Navy pilot to know what they think of the Super Hornet.


About the gun :

No great joy yet, concerning Rafale’s gun. I won’t retell the weapon’s history as I already did so extensively, but it is clearly on of Rafale’s two major design flaws (the other one is the radio). Too high a firing rate so the gun heats up and stops, and too low a dispersion of fired ammo. What would have been excellent with the initially planned automatic fire control became barely good enough, best case, in conventional use. As a pilot said « it works fine as long as you don’t use it » and he seemed to be only half joking.
Despite this, a large part of the initial problems due to vibrations were or are being solved. Nexter allegedly works towards reducing the firing rate in order to raise reliability.
So, it still doesn’t achieve the same reliability as Mirage 2000’s gun, but is being continuously improved and now reliable enough (or secured enough) to be used regularly in combat, whether for A2A warning shots or A2G use. But, I’m still quoting, « fortunately we always fly in pair ».
The dispersion issue on the other hand seems to be more difficult to correct.
Even if I didn’t get a frank answer from Dassault, the presence of single and dual-gun pods on their stand didn’t seem innocent to me. One of my interlocutors even evoked the theoretical likelihood of seeing a future Rafale without an internal gun if a customer asked for it (I assume that Rafale N’s legacy should make this feasible without too much trouble) but I didn’t feel like it was referencing a particular prospect, more the technical feasibility of the request.
That being said, I’d personally find rather cool a Rafale version without an internal gun but a larger fuel capacity for ex, with a monotube gun pod under the air intake across from a Talios pod. Or better, 6 AASM, laser guided rocket pods on store point 3, and a dual barrel gun pod ventrally. To make it more clear, apart than writing « CAS in your face » on the aircraft’s side, I can’t see how ! :D

About the DDM-NG :

Whether at Dassault or the Defense Ministry, the instruction given to our interlocutors is clear : they must not speak about it. However by reading between the lines, listening to oncersations around, or with « off » remarks, one can still extract something interesting. First, one thing is certain, they seem to be VERY satisfied. From what information I could pull off sneakily, they work towards the protection « bubble » around the plane, integrated in Spectra, which can single-handedly determine an over the shoulder MICA shot. To deduce that DDM allow rudimentary target designation (TD), there’s a single step one could easily cross… With all the nuances it brings : this kind of TD would only be useful for self-defense. The missile is launched at an approximative location and works alone to finds its target. Even if it doesn’t hit, it will force the opponent to duck and cover, allowing the Rafale to reposition itself and fire another MICA.
In any case, it works towards the goal of firing behind the shoulder.Is it enough for this use, or does it have to involve another sensor ? I have the feeling and conviction that in some cases it can do it alone, without the track being correlated with L16 or Spectra but I don’t have anything to prove it. Technically anyway, it doesn’t seem to be an issue, as we know from Prof’s (another poster) article, but it remains to be seen what is actually implemented in the plane’s weapon system. The DDM-NG being plug and play replacements to legacy DDM, it’s more than likely the more exotic capabilities allowed by the sensors will only be added to the weapon system as software updates are introduced along with the different standards.
Anyway, even if the DDM-NG were able to produce, alone, a rudimentary TD, I feel that it’s tactically implausible : a Rafale doesn’t operate alone and it’s unlikely it would be surprised so much. An intruder won’t appear our of thin air less than 10nm from the Rafale without Spectra, L16 or other sensors correlating the DDM-NG track.
But I don’t doubt anymore that the DDm-NG is more than a simple missile launch detector, and that in some cases it shares a role in detecting aircraft and achieving TD. We knew it was technically possible, for me it’s an operational reality now.
That being said, it isn’t an OSF bis ! The DDM-NG tracks are fused into the VTM data but the pilot doesn’t have direct access to what the sensor « sees », unlike the OSF which allows vu=isual ID, there’s no laser rangefidner, etc.
That’s why I think it largely works towards building situational awareness and TD building but, alone, its stays a purely self-defense item.
So, not an OSF in that it doesn’t allow obtaining TD like an OSF (laser rangefinder, screen visualization etc) but takes part in TD through sensor fusion.

About the radar and radar signature (SER) :

The AESA antenna brings considerable advantages compared to the old antenna, which was already very nice. The PESA could demonstrate the flexibility and ECM resistance of the electronic antenna, the active one yet improves flexibility while offering a welcome maximum range, all without compromising the previous model’s discretion.
In practice, more than the maximum range necessary to shoot Meteor (even though it seems we’ll sometimes only use it in the same range bracket as the PESA to gain in discretion), mode interleaving is very awaited, notably terrain following and A2Asurveillance.
It was hinted that eventually, counter-stealth modes are being developed and could arrive « sooner than anticipated » (I’d bet 50 bucks on F4 standard and 50 more on a wake tracking capability, given what was hinted to me, but I can be mistaken as I don’t know anything in radar frequencies in use and such things).
Rafale’s SER is very low, dramatically less than Typhoon’s in clean configuration, according to a Rafale pilot. But planes don’t actually fly clean and even if they were completely invisible apart from two drop tanks, a pair of pigeon-like signatures flying in formation at Mach 1.5 would be noticeable on a radar screen.
So more or less, passive stealth isn’t so important in operational configurations, Spectra and flight profiles playing a much more important role in the plane’s discretion. Still, Dassault works on stealhier stores to improve again Spectra’s efficiency.
In any case, the sawtooth patterns and wing positioning, as well as air intake angles aren’t random or decorative. Whereas on Typhoon, to quote a Rafale pilot, « it looks like they did everything to make it non discreet » talking soleley about design.


About Spectra and the VTM :

I won’t go back in detail over the VTM, we can always discuss it later. Roughly, it’s located right below the HUD and likewise collimated to infinity (well actually 5m but to the human eye it’s the same). First, it prevents the eye from working to accomodate between HUD and VTM, but even more, it gives the impression (to the eye and brain) of seeing a much larger surface than actually perceived. A bit like a cinema screen at 10m won’t be larger in your FoV than your smartphone close to your eyes, but will remain far more comfortable to look at, with better picture definition and ease of interpretation.
On the VTM, the aircraft’s weapon system displays the tactical situation and the informations it chooses to show in combat. It is the screen of the famous, and much talked about, sensor fusion. On a single display, the system offers a clear picture of the tactical situation , threats, elements detected by the various sensors. Its symbology is simple, the pilot doesn’t have to switch from one screen to another to check that the L16 track transmitted by AWACS corresponds to the one detected by the IR sensor, etc. Everything is done by the sensor fusion and delivered to the pilots on the VTM.
And they’re very happy with it. They know it’s one of their main strengths, which implies greatc onfidence in the system by the way, but offers tremendous advantages in terms of situational awareness and rapid decision making.
The only little drawback of the VTM is, sometimes you have to tilt your head a bit to the side because it’s difficult to see everything at once. But it’s apparently quick to learn and not a problem.
We’ll note that this VTM only works so well because Spectra’s really efficient ! I already spoke about the possibility of some cross-checking errors, notably when integrating badly refreshed or approximative L16 tracks, but it’s always possible not to display some data on the VTM then. Still, most of the time Spectra manages everything all by itself, even to the point of classifying threats and prioritizing them, allowing the pilot to achieve his mission.

Well, is one confirms that Spectra plays a major role in Rafale’s discretion, one won’t give infos to a journalists. In the end, I got more « confidences » during the public days hiding my badge than during the pro days.
Even though I didn’t learn anything new, it’s always nice to have confirmations :
_ Spectra alla lone allow to achieve target designation in BVR, but this isn’t necessarily pertinent as ROE often require visual or AWACS confirmation. Moreover, even if Rafale’s ECM are excellent, the enemy’s can also be very good, and then you see again why sensor fusion is interesting : MICA-IR can confirme a target’s direction, OSF-TV and laser range finder confirm distance, all the while minimizing the Rafale’s presence.
All the more so during penetration missions, when Rafale has to be as stealthy as possible, its very low alt posture forcing the opponent to search using radar, and it can use OSF range to its fullest, as it surpasses the range of its missiles.
_ Of course I wasn’t told about active cancellation, but some details hinted at it. It seems that playing with enemy radars’ return waves is a reality, but the goal would be less becoming invisible than deceiving about location, number, distance, nature of the threat. That we already knew, but I was really impressed with the coherence of the system with the Rafale concept : it requires enormous confidence in Spectra and a good pair of balls, but it manages to really protect the aircraft while either forcing enemy radars to get out of the woods, allowing one to better avoid them (or even destroy them), or play low as they can’t make sens of the tactical situation. Of course I don’t have the tactical details, but it looks really impressive, and I don’t even know what Spectra has in reserve for A2A (for what it’s worth, maybe it leans more towards invisibility). Anyway it remains coherent with the idea that Spectra isnt’ designed to jam wide and hard to clear a safe corridor for an entire raid (the US method) but to jam subtly and finely to protect each aircraft and also create a diffuse electronic background noise making things impossible for the people down there.
_ In Libya, which was rather well equipped SAM and AAA wise, the guys knew that Rafales were en route, knew their destinations and targets, yet couldn’t do anything about it. There was, reportedly, enemy fire, decoys and evasives, but it remains hard to say to what extent aircraft survival was due to Spectra’s quality or misisle launch failures (and apparently they don’t really care as long as they get to return home). In any case, Armée de l’Air didn’t wait for the Tomahawk barrage in order to do SEAD with AASM and OSF-Spectra tracks then. But we already talked about that.


About AASM and SEAD :

Since we’re talking AASM. Target coordinates are transmitted via L16 or Rover, or directly from the sensors : OSF, Damocles, radar, even Spectra or a combination thereof. Then they’re integrated into the AASM through a pilot manipulation : it isn’t done automatically but he doesn’t have to input the coordinates manually either. Apparently it’s well designed, and simple and fast enough to do.

AASM is well and truly able to be fired towards the rear. Here’s word for word the conversation with an AdA armorer : « So it is true you can fire AASM backwards ? » « Yes, we sure can ! » « So was it ever done, I mean is there any good reason for doing it ? » « Ah no, it’s completely useless, be if we wanted to, we could. »

Soit was never done operationally and apparently the usefulness isn’t yet established. But it could be done if ever needed. Tactically it seems smarter to shoot from the side then do an evasive (which makes it so the target behind the Rafale at the time of impact) rather than fly over a target and then shooting it over the shoulder. And indeed, it’s logical when you say it like that.
The bomb’s big advantage is NOT having to fly over the target, or having a predictable behavior for the guys down there, being able to do several firing passes on a group of targets without EVER coming from the same place, overflying the targets, never having the same altitude or attitude when shooting. It’s possible to coordinate strikes with great accuracy, to shoot a target in the next valley if you want, etc.

At the DGA they stay very evasive regarding SEAD use of the Rafale : it seems to be done empirically but procedures for it apparently aren’t completely validated. I asked what it was worth compared to a F-16CJ, and was told it was apples and oranges. The F-16CJ is an escort plane, it forces enemy radars to come out of hiding so they can be destroyed and ensure the safety of the bombers who themselves don’t have any defense mechanism of their own against that type of threat.
With Rafale it’s very different. One doesn’t fly provocatively to make the enemy show himself. Each plane in the raid can defend itself and, if radars show themselves, Spectra allows to avoid them above all. If the mission demands it or it’s a valid opportunity target, SEAD shoots with AASM can be done (and have been done) but the goal’s mainly to let the raid get through towards its original targets. Everyone protects himself rather than the crowd… global efficiency is higher for a French-like tactical use..
The biggest advantage of the solution lies in the fact that each plane in the raid can potentially destroy 6 enemy radars, and by not forcing the enemy to show himself during the first raids, the risk of losing a plane is lwoered while mastery of the air isn’t yet total (if you can avoid a CSAR mission the first day, you will).
Long term, either you send raids to directly attack the SAM sites (with AASM or SCALP) or their logistics (missile transport trucks, command vehicles, etc).

So finally there won’t be a dedicated anti-radar AASM. It doesn’tseem to fit with the spirit fo the AASM which is precisely versatility, not having to choose before flight which type of bomb to bring.

In this little game the laser version is much awaited, whereas the IIR version doesn’t seem to have AdA’s favor any more : too constraining as it doesn’t allow hitting mobile or pre-recorded targets other than with its GPS-INS mode that demonstrated metric accuracy, the IIR version stays in the inventory (if one day the GPS can’t be used, jammed or denied by the US for ex) but operationally the INS-GPS version showed its accuracy and the laser version’s the one awaited in quantity (the first operational shots didn’t fully exploit the critter’s potential).
The laser version has the advantage of working against fast moving targets, as well as radar sites and naval targets, the Damocles pod being quite impressive in range. And the effectiveness against mobile targets doesn’t prevent from using it « conventionally » with impressive accuracy.
Airburst modes are being developed for current CAS missions and future SEAD, anti-infantry, vehicle concentration etc. Spectra seems accurate enough to extract rough coordinates of radars or communication systems of SAM sites, even though most often Rafale’s discretion allows it to refine target designation with Damocles telemetry or OSF.
Then, a pair of AASM soon in airburst mode will do just as well as a couple HARM.
So instead of developing an new and mission-specific ammunition, industrials prefer to work on improving TD on passive multisensor tracks (Spectra), understand refined by synchronization of two or more aircraft’s observations.

I’d have liked to know more about the new AASM head shown with two seekers (one IIR and one laser I suppose, though I don’t know why they didn’t make a dual mode, it’s doable) but I didn’t find anyone to talk to. If someone else has infos about it…


Other stuff :

The AESA radar seems really excellent. PESA wasn’t bad at all but AESA is a leap forward in terms of range, functions and discretion. Collaborative work between a Rafale AESA and one or several PESA equipped ones (who will actually mostly fight radar off) should fully become a reality soon.
You can reget that every PESA didn’t switch to AESA but it doesn’t matter much actually : usual rafale tactics already imply that only some operate radar on, the others staying discreet. Here, one will make it so the AESA one is radar on.

It was hinted when talking about DDM-NG, but Rafale can well and truly fire MICA backwards using only its own sensors, therefore Spectra, and certainly DDM-NG too. But even without these Spectra alone can achieve sufficient TD for self-defense shots to the rear.
Dassault would really like AdA and MN to try that kind of thing during international exercises so they cojuld communicate about it, but here too DGA refuses to show potential adversaries that a plane flying radar off in a Rafale’s 6 is already a target for it.

AdA wants the opening of stores point 3 and an HMD… but doesn’t want to pay for development. So little strongarming between Dassault, who doesn’t want to ask their export customers to pay for a capability that AdA will then use (it looks cheap and diminishes the competitiveness of Dassault’s offer), and AdA who doesn’t want to pay for stuff that will be offer to export anyway.
In the end it will mostly delay HMD deployment, even though the State should pay for at least part of point 3 opening, the idea being giving A2G Rafales as many A2A weapons as current interceptor configs. In air superiority missions, it would mean carrying 2 Meteor, 4 MICA-EM and 2 MICA-IR. This is starting to be a nice crowd.

On the other hand, THE big drawback of Rafale isn’t the lack of HMD, nor the engine (which is by no means too weak) but the radio. New antenna or not, rafale’s radio is apparently horrible, its most annoying system. You don’t hear anything, range is crap, the plane need to be flying level to give it a chance to barely work… In short, it would be THE THING to replace urgently according to the pilots. Not that it’s a critical problem, just very annoying apparently. Ifound that weird because I never heard about it, but of I was asked to inquire, I suppose it wasn’t for nothing ;)

As alluded right before, thrust seems more than enough to everyone I could speak to. The basic plane remains light and in A2A config, wanting a 9t engine is wanting to transform it into a Millenium Falcon (I told you recently, 9t on a rafale would give it the best TWR in the world, above Typhoon, Raptor and PAK-FA) and risk getting bingo fuel much too soon, when the current plane doesn’t have any problem thanks to the FBW and ease of handling that some prospects might not have anticipated.
Still, it could be interesting to have a bit more thrust for hot weather, high altitude, heavy config take offs, but even there people seemed confident enough : « if we have to cover 200m more runway to take off, it’s not big deal »..

I asked which weapon was most lacking on Rafale. The answer was, until now mostly lacking was a heavy strike capability easier to deploy than SCALP, but confirmation was made that Rafale had just emplyed GBU-24 for the first time in operation, just e few days before.
What is still lacking is a low collateral damage weapon, for use in urban terrain especially. TDA strongly pushes for guided rocket pods in point 3 (2 pods of 12 guided rockets in total), arguing that it would allow to neutralize 24 sensitive targets, without taking from the ability to carry 6 AASm or GBU-12 under wing.
But TDA/Thaless ideas are a bit too disruptive for the heads of AdA. Allegedly they were told before they even began their presentation during an AdA brief, that « No but you’re wasting your time anyway, what we want is missiles, rockets are over ». In short, innovation vs a well entrenched culture that refuses to admit its past failures (with some decent arguments, others not so).
In the meantime, Rafale will get a reduced lethality weapon, namely the BLU-126 which is just a bomb body similar to the Mk-82 but less pwoerful, guaranteeing its integration on GBU-12, GBU-49 and AASM in theory. Less glamour than rockets but damn easier to integrate.
So, roughly, armament wisethe future belongs to low ollateral damage bodies and airburst ones for the bombs in service, a generalization of AASM-Laser, and maybe later MICA on point 3.
EDIT : beyond new weapons, what pilots are asking for is the ability to load asymetrical configs or at least different weapon types on the same flight.
The DGA and industrials are already working on the ability to carry one GBU-24 underbelly and 6 AASM/GBU-12 underwing so one main target can be treated along with secondaries (or the main one’s defenses) on the same flight.
Dassault states that it isn’t a problem to allow for carrying GBU-12 on the right and AASM on the left, or AASM-IR on one side and AASM-Laser on the other. But the customer has to pay for it, and for now AdA prefers to mix inside the patrol rather than under the same plane, a choice that’s worth another.

From an industry source working in the Middle East, no resale is planned for the Qatari and Emirati Mirage 2000, for the moment : the goal over there is rather to increase armed strength (deep strike and close interdiction), with even an increase in the A2G capabilities of the region’s M2Ks. I’m not allowed to say more, but roughly there will be all new weapon configs on the local M2Ks that we’re not used to. Of course we’re used, sicne a long time, to have 4000 liters of fuel underwing in order to fly very far and drop two lousy bombs on whatever idiots we can unhide. Against Iran, the goal is exactly the contrary : the landing barges will be less than 60km from the airfields, and the planes will have to be loaded to the gills with ammo. I’m waiting that impatiently.

Last but not least, I learnt that a Rafale ate a pelican during an international exercise. It seems that it was in Canada or Norway, I can’t remember. But the bird completely scrapped the engine, damage being confined to it, apart from a few bumps on the intake and a Spectra antenna that didn’t enjoy the experience. After a standard engine change, the plane could fly home without concern.
Still, a pelican !

[TMor]

Quel boulot... On verra ce qu'on en fait, mais tout de même, merci !

[Claudio Lopez]

You did a very good job iborg ! :)

GREAT work of traduction :)

[iborg]

Merci ! J'ai occupé quelques heures de canicule au bureau comme ça ^^

[prof.566]

Merci ! J'ai occupé quelques heures de canicule au bureau comme ça ^^

Bon, on balace ca sur Keypub?