[Rafale]

[zx]

Le tejas va se reprendre au moins 2 ans de délai pour être déployé dans l'IAF, aux dernières nouvelles.

ils espèrent se raccrocher au mk2, y en a pour un moment.

 

http://www.janes.com/article/41342/tejas-foc-delayed-again-indian-defence-minister-admits

Modifié le 5 août 2014 par zx

[pascal]

d'un autre côté ce n'est pas vraiment le même spectre de mission pour les deux avions ... ni les mêmes capacités

 

le soucis pour le Rafale semble être bien plus au niveau des capacités de financement indiennes, compris dans le fait que produire en INde semble devoir être plus coûteux et plus long que prévu

[zx]

ils veulent tout, sauf qu'il faut aussi toute l'industrie qui va avec, cela coûte un peu plus cher que 126 rafale tout fait. le Tejas 

est la pour ralentir les pertes de mig21 vieillissants.

 

Sauf que j'ai l'impression que HAL freine des 4 fers pour le FOC en argumentant un nouveau problème. sans compter que leur avion d'entrainement est à refaire. HAL a peut être peur que le Tejas mk1 finisse par révéler trop de problèmes lors de son entré en service.  l'IAF a passé commande en 2005. peut être il restera au stade de la pré série pour faire le mk2.

Modifié le 5 août 2014 par zx

[olivier lsb]

d'un autre côté ce n'est pas vraiment le même spectre de mission pour les deux avions ... ni les mêmes capacités

 

le soucis pour le Rafale semble être bien plus au niveau des capacités de financement indiennes, compris dans le fait que produire en INde semble devoir être plus coûteux et plus long que prévu

 

Bien sur, et la n'est pas la question. L'article le souligne d'ailleurs très bien 

 

 

 

 Il faut comprendre que si le Tejas, même dans sa version MKII, sera inférieure au Rafale, ce projet ne représente rien de plus, que l’autonomie aéronautique indienne ! Par conséquent tout est fait en faveur du Tejas.

[zx]

ca fait quand même légèrement plus d'un avion sur deux indisponible.

 

Des chiffres sur la disponibilité des avions de l’armée de l’Air qui manquent de précision

 

http://www.opex360.com/2014/05/28/des-chiffres-sur-la-disponibilite-des-avions-de-larmee-de-lair-qui-manquent-de-precision/

 

Quant au Rafale (83 exemplaires en dotation au 31 décembre 2013), leur coût de maintenance est raisonnable : 221,60 millions, doit 2,66 millions par unité en service, pour un taux de disponibilité de 45,60%. Sans doute que celui des avions du 1/91 Gascogne, escadron des Forces aériennes stratégiques, est compris dans cette statistique (mais là encore, la réponse du ministère ne le précise pas).

 

Mais ils semble qu'on met le paquet sur la maintenance quand il y a des opex et le taux de dispos monte à fond, le fameux dto,

on aurait 2 taux de dispo.

Modifié le 5 août 2014 par zx

[bubzy]

De mon avis personnel, et du point de vue Indien, le contrat Rafale n'est pas du tout un frein à l'industrie aérospatiale Indienne. Bien au contraire.

L'acquisition des technologies de l'avion permettra à HAL d'en apprendre bien plus et de rattraper leur retard. ça en sera même bénéfique pour les amélioration du Tejas ou même, de son remplaçant.

 

Ce n'est pas un mystère pour moi si les Indiens commandent si peu de ce petit chasseur. Ils veulent juste un avion le moins cher possible qui concentre toutes les capacités acquises depuis tant d'années. Le but du programme Tejas n'est pas de faire un avion. C'est de créer une industrie indépendante.

[DEFA550]

Je ne vois pas quelle précision apporter. Il y a ceux qui peuvent voler le jour J à l'heure H, et les autres (dépannage, entretien, maintenance, attente de pièce, attente de réparation, arrêt de vol, etc).

[DrSomnath999]

can any one please translate this JPEG pics into english ???

 

@TMor or any noble french member out here

 

please take your time no problem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CHEERS

Modifié le 6 août 2014 par DrSomnath999

[Patrick]

I have nothing to do right now  so I guess I can. Will edit this message step by step since it will take some time. Feel free to correct me if you think it's badly written.

 

Edit 3 : fully translated. Feel free to tweak or correct.  I tried to stay as close as possible to the original text.

 

***

 

translated from the AIR&COSMOS issue of April 5th 2013.

 

THE ARMÉE DE L'AIR CHAFING WITH ACTIVE ARRAY.

 

For almost six months, CEAM experimenters are clearing the operating concept for the new Rafale active array radar. Here are their first feedbacks.

 

It was October 2012, the 24th. On this day, a new kind of Rafale was taking its flight from Air base 118 in Mont-de-Marsan, stronghold of the CEAM (Centre d'Essais Aériens Militaire, Military Air Testing Center, edn). Outwardly, nothing or so distinguishes it from the dozens of Rafale which already succeeded on the Airbase of Landes region. However, under its little radome hides the promise of an announced revolution in air-to-air fighting : the RBE2-AESA, first european active electronic scanning array ever installed on a fighter plane.

 

"In total, we have already made some sixty flights with the new radar" explains Lieutnant-Colonel Laurent Royer, chief of staff of the Rafale team in CEAM. The experimentation program forecasts 90 flights, with a precise target in its line of sight : being able to "deliver" a first batch of 4 AESA equipped Rafale to the squadron  EC1/7 "Provence" of Saint Dizier Air Base, along with an initial operating concept to get the better of this new capability, including air to air combat.

 

 

TACTICS.

 

"The reef we need to avoid is indeed to transpose our current tactics without taking into account the enormous potentialities offered by this new antenna", insists Lieutnant-Colonel Royer. And these are numerous. First, about radar coverage : with a range increased by 50% and a scanning area going to +/-70° on each side of the plane's axis, the volume scanned with the RBE2-AESA is far more important than with the RBE2-PESA (read the first text box). "The number of tracks which can be simultaneously detected is almost heightened by a factor three" precise the Rafale pilot.

 

This information surplus could have generated some saturation for the pilot, yet it doesn't. "We asked ourselves if things should be questioned about data processing for the crew, but the acuteness of the existing interface allows to absorb the information overload."

Same comment about plane's computer and its capability to fusion these new datas : "visibly, it's going pretty well, and the system remains fluent", notes the CEAM pilot.

This considerably increased scanning zone will open new perspectives to Rafale pilots engaged in air to air missions. Hard to get details about these yet-to-come tactics, for confidentiality purpose. But Lieutnant-Colonel Royer gives us some food for thought : "With two Rafale AESA keeping the "baseline" for a wave of fighters, we can obtain a sort of mini AWACS capability", the aviator estimates. In fact, even if the exact range of the new radar is classified, it is estimated to be over 150km (maybe a bit more) on a non-stealth target the size of a fighterjet.

 

In Beyond Visual Range combat, this crucial advantage allows the Rafale to enhance its discretion against its ennemies. While AESA equipped aircrafts would stay out of range of the ennemy fighter's weapons and sensors, other non AESA Rafale would appoach the targets, radar off, maximising the surprise effect to launch their MICA missiles, taking advantage of a Link-16 transmitted designation of objective sent by the AESA-equipped Rafale.

An operating concept reminding what the US Air Force stated it considered to use with its F-15C AESA to detect distant targets for the stealth F-22, which could then fire their missiles in a totally discrete way.

Obviously, the commissioning of the METEOR, expected for the end of this decade, will change this. The new ramjet missile will have a maximal range very comparable to the RBE2-AESA. New tactics shall be elaborated then... But we're not there yet.

 

 

HUNTING THE STEALTHIES

 

The other predictable advantage of the AESA, is its capability to detect (at same range) far better than the actual PESA can, low Radar Cross Section, or RCS, targets. "We have already conducted radar scans against low RCS aircrafts like Grob 120, TBM, Epsilon (propeller training and utility aircrafts in the french airforce, edn) and of course the Rafale, but the ultimate test will be fulfilled with the NeuroN drone" explains Lieutnant-Colonel Royer. The demonstrator will allow, once its RCS will be perfectly measured on the ground by the DGA (Délégation Générale de l'Armement, the french equivalent of the US DARPA, edn) to precisely determine the performances of the AESA against stealth aircrafts. It would be quite troublesome indeed to go "tickling" american F-22 or B-2 aircrafts to get an idea of the new radar capabilities...

The RBE2 AESA resistance to counter-measures also have to be tested by the CEAM. A complex procedure, as the radar will have to face french electronic jamming systems (SPECTRA, etc.) requiring some discretion to use as they are still covered by secrecy. Therefore, a lot of work will have to be done over the coming months to prepare the missions destined to testproof these performances.

 

 

CEAM

 

For the time being, a single plane is at disposal in CEAM to conduct the test campaign : the Rafale C137, which was delivered during autumn of 2012. "It's a preproduction plane, as such, we don't yet have the spare parts needed to maintain the new sensors." We will need to wait delivery of the first AESA-equipped serial model (the two seater B339) in june, to allow the validation by our testing team of their new air to air tactics involving two-fighters. In air to ground, the CEAM work mainly consists in verifying there is no regression compared with the RBE2 PESA, as no performance improvement is planned. That's why the radar has recently been dismounted to be installed on a two-seater, the Rafale B305, for the terrain-following tests. "the operation only takes two hours or so" explains the pilot. For instance, only 60 AESA radars have been ordered by France, but they will have to be able to equip the full fleet or Rafale in the air force and navy. Once it is brought to the F3.3 update, which should be soon commissioned in the Armée de l'Air, any Rafale will be able to carry a RBE2-AESA. It was important to validate this "plug and play" capability included in the specifications of the new radar. Still, a new radome is needed, in which is located the antenna along with the thousand of little transmitters-receivers modules. About 20kilograms heavier compared to the PESA, this new antenna only requires a supplemental hinge to fix the radome to the rest of the fuselage. "For the plane, the operation is transparent : from the start, it recognizes the new antenna and immediately behave like an aircraft fitted with an AESA".

 

 

EXPERTISE.

 

How, then, will the active antenna be deployed in the armed forces ? As the most experienced squadron in air to air combat, the EC1/7 "Provence" from Saint-Dizier will be the first to ramp up with this new capability thanks to a first batch of 4 Rafale AESA which should become operational in the end of 2013. Beyond this point, thinking is still ongoing. "We think we will need to cleverly deploy the 60 antennas in every squadron, to fully play the versatility card", says Lieutnant-Colonel Laurent Royer.

By then, experts of CEAM will continue to refine their operating concept in order to deliver a true first hand capability, which will then be daily improved directly in squadrons. By the end of June, the experimentation squadron "Côte d'Argent" should deploy its first AESA in Norway for the NATO "Tiget Meet" Excercise. A good opportunity to show the foreign participants that the Rafale, as an air to air fighter, has more than one trumpcard in its sleeve.

 

***

 

Textbox Page 21 :

 

"Capabilities vastly superior to Mirage 2000-5F's"

 

Three questions to general Joël Rode, commander of the CEAM

 

What conclusions do you pull out of these Active Array assessments ?

 

As of today, what I understand thanks to my experience as an air defense pilot and the discussions I had with my teams, is that this new radar will grant the Rafale capabilities not only vastly superior to what it's already able to do, but also superior to those of the Mirage 2000-5F, which still is the yardstick in terms of air to air fighter in the french army. Furthermore, the planned commissioning of the Meteor missile on Rafale required such a sensor.

 

How will this capability transfer to the operational forces ?

 

The experimentation isn't over yet, and numerous aspects of the radar's operating field have yet to be validated. For example electronic warfare, a domain which will sensibly evolve with the RBE2-AESA. The daily operation of the radar shall be subject to extensive work, in order to determine new tactics adapted to the performances of the radar. Then, we will have to train our technicians for the commissioning of this new system, which must be transferable from a Rafale to another one.

 

What are the other topics which will mobilize the CEAM in 2013 ?

 

Our priority is still to support deployed troops, and as such, we're still working for the "serval" operation in Mali. We just achieved an accelerated experimentation campaign of the laser-guided AASM bomb so this capability will be available over Mali. Obviously, the A400M is the main program which will put CEAM under the limelight when the first plane is delivered. We're going to be bombarded with questions and we'll have to show the rest of the community what the plane is capable of. All this while the level of support we're going to get from the industrial during this experimentation phase is still unknown.

 

***

 

Textbox page 22 :

 

The "old" RBE2-PESA is still evolving

 

The commission of RBE2-AESA doesn't mean the RBE2-PESA passive electronic scanning array is dead. For the time being, only 60 AESA have been ordered by the air force and navy, which will still have to use their "old generation" sensors. That's why the PESA is still being improved. In Mont-de-Marsan, the Rafale team will soon start to experiment new evolutions supposed to enhance its electronic warfare capabilities. The goal of this software modification is to enhance its capabilities in Electronic Counter Counter Measures (ECCM) so it will keep working properly even facing evolved jamming systems. Of course, these potential threats have nothing to do with Mali or Libya theaters of operations, but should be taken into account to make the Rafale's "first entry" capability relevant on some more heavily defended territories. 

Over sixty flights will be necessary to complete this experiment which will then applied as a software retrofit to every french Rafale. The Suivi de Terrain Automatique (Automated Terrain-Following) also has been subject to some extensive works, which are about to lead to the commissioning of a more evoluted Radar terrain following capability than the current one. In order to fly low and fast without visibility, a numerical terrain modeling was previously used to "guide" the aircraft. The Radar Automated Terrain Following will allow greater autonomy, since the RBE2 PESA will allow the Rafale to "see" the ground under, which will make it able to determine the most adapted Flight path to stay under ennemy radar coverage. Lots of missions have been carried by the CEAM to achieve this, Culminating with Armée de l'Air experimenters testing this aptitude over the sands of United Arab Emirates Desertic landscape.

 

***

 

Guillaume Steuer, Air&Cosmos n°2353, April 5th, 2013

 

translated (badly) by some french with an outrageous accent.

Modifié le 6 août 2014 par Patrick

[bubzy]

can any one please translate this JPEG pics into english ???

 

@TMor or any noble french member out here

 

please take your time no problem

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CHEERS

 

DO you have san in better quality ? With OCR we can translate it faster. Aproximative, but faster.

With the followed website (http://www.i2ocr.com/), you upload your pictures, the programm extract the text and then, you can translate it with google, directly from the web site

[prof.566]

Je pense que ca a été posté par un certain journaliste sous le nom d'Olybrius. Bruno (Ca vient d'A&C). Je pars en vax ce soir pour 8 jours, éventuellement je traduirai après.

Modifié le 6 août 2014 par prof.566

[DrSomnath999]

Je pense que ca a été posté par un certain journaliste sous le nom d'Olybrius. Bruno (Ca vient d'A&C). Je pars en vax ce soir pour 8 jours, éventuellement je traduirai après.

Hee hee

 

good to see bruno  in this forum also another familiar face

 

well BTW olybrius is not a journalist i have asked him personally on PM 

he denied it 

 

CHEERS

[DrSomnath999]

I have nothing to do right now  so I guess I can. Will edit this message step by step since it will take some time. Feel free to correct me if you think it's badly written.

 

(edit : will take some more time due to fortuitous personnal issues)

 

***

 

translated from the AIR&COSMOS issue of April 5th 2013.

 

THE ARMÉE DE L'AIR CHAFING WITH ACTIVE ARRAY.

 

For almost six months, CEAM experimenters are clearing the concept of employment for the new Rafale active array radar. Here are their first feedbacks.

 

It was October 2012, the 24th. On this day, a new kind of Rafale was taking its flight from Air base 118 in Mont-de-Marsan, stronghold of the CEAM (Centre d'Essais Aériens Militaire, Military Air Testing Center). Outwardly, nothing or so distinguishes it from the dozens of Rafale which already succeeded on the Airbase of Landes region. However, under its little radome hides the promise of an announced revolution in air-to-air fighting : the RBE2-AESA, first european active electronic scanning array ever installed on a fighter plane.

 

"In total, we have already made some sixty flights with the new radar" explains Lieutnant-Colonel Laurent Royer, chief of staff of the Rafale team in CEAM. The experimentation program forecasts 90 flights, with a precise target in its line of sight : being able to "deliver" a first batch of 4 AESA equipped Rafale to the squadron EC-1/7 "Provence" of Saint Dizier Air Base, along with an initial employment concept to get the better out of this new capability, including air to air combat.

 

 

TACTICS.

 

"The reef we need to avoid is indeed to transpose our current tactics without taking into account the enormous potentialities offered by this new antenna", insists Lieutnant-Colonel Royer. And these are numerous. First, about radar coverage : with a range increased by 50% and a scanning area going to +/-70° on each side of the plane's axis, the volume scanned with the RBE2-AESA is far more important than with the RBE2-PESA (read text box). "The number of tracks which can be simultaneously detected is almost heightened by a factor three" precise the Rafale pilot.

 

This information surplus could have generated some saturation for the pilot, yet it doesn't. "We asked ourselves if things should be questioned about data processing for the crew, but the acuteness of the existing interface allows to absorb the information overload."

Same comment about plane's computer and its capability to fusion these new datas : "visibly, it's going pretty well, and the system remains fluent", notes the CEAM pilot.

This considerably increased scanning zone will open new perspectives to Rafale pilots engaged in air to air missions. Hard to get details about these yet-to-come tactics, for confidentiality purpose. But Lieutnant-Colonel Royer gives us some food for thought : "With two Rafale AESA keeping the "baseline" for a wave of fighters, we can obtain a sort of mini AWACS capability", the aviator estimates. In fact, even if the exact range of the new radar is classified, it is estimated to be over 150km (maybe a bit more) on a non-stealth target the size of a fighterjet.

 

***will add this part soon***

 

 

CEAM

 

For the time being, a single plane is at disposal in CEAM to conduct the test campaign : the Rafale C137, which was delivered during autumn of 2012. "It's a preproduction plane, as such, we don't yet have the spare parts needed to maintain the new sensors." We will need to wait delivery of the first AESA-equipped serial model (the two seater B339) in june, to allow the validation by our testing team of their new air to air tactics involving two-fighters. In air to ground, the CEAM work mainly consists in verifying there is no regression compared with the RBE2 PESA, as no performance improvement is planned. That's why the radar has recently been installed on a two-seater, the Rafale B305, for the terrain-following tests. "the operation only takes two hours or so" explains the pilot. For instance, only 60 AESA radars have been ordered by France, but they will have to be able to equip the full fleet or Rafale in the air force and navy. Once it is brought to the F3.3 update, which should be soon commissioned in the Armée de l'Air, any Rafale will be able to carry a RBE2-AESA. It was important to validate this "plug and play" capability included in the specifications of the new radar. Still, a new radome is needed, in which is located the antenna along with the thousand of little transmitters-receivers modules. About 20kilograms heavier compared to the PESA, this new antenna only requires a supplemental hinge to fix the radome to the rest of the fuselage. "For the plane, the operation is transparent : from the start, it recognizes the new antenna and immediately behave like an AESA-fitted aircraft".

 

 

EXPERTISE.

 

How, then, will the active antenna be deployed in the armed forces ? As the most experienced squadron in air to air combat, the EC 1/7 "Provence" from Saint-Dizier will be the first to ramp up with this new capability thanks to a first batch of 4 Rafale AESA which should become operational in the end of 2013. Beyond this point, thinking is still ongoing. "We think we will need to cleverly deploy the 60 antennas in every squadron, to fully play the versatility card", says Lieutnant-Colonel Laurent Royer.

By then, experts of CEAM will continue to refine their concept of employment in order to deliver a true first hand capability, which will then be daily improved directly in squadrons. By the end of June, the experimentation squadron "Côte d'Argent" should deploy its first AESA in Norway for the NATO "Tiget Meet" Excercise. A good opportunity to show the foreign participants that the Rafale, as an air to air fighter, has more than one trumpcard in its sleeve.

thanks for your effort 

 

BTW you didnt included what was posted in separate coloumns in those pics

 

& one more thing i couldnt understand

 

En effet, même si la est classifiée, elle est estimée a l50 km (voire un peu plus) sur une cible non furtive de type avion de combat

 

 

english translation

Even if is classified, it is estimated at l50 km (or slightly more) on a non stealth fighter target types

 

IMO this thing is totally absurd 130/140km is the detection range of RBE 2 pesa radar so increase of 50% range for an AESA variant was claimed by CEAM  it should be around 200/210 km against  fighter size target

 

 

 

CHEERS

[Patrick]

I'm not finished yet, DrSomnath999 ;) and the part you quoted lacks an entire page.

 

Give me one more hour, I had things to do while working on this.

[pascal]

IT'S SERAIT VERY GOUDE DATTE DISSE FORUM WON'T DEVIENDRE A SHOW ROOM OF TRANSLATION AND ONLY AN ENGLISH ESPACE OF REFLEXION

 

THANKS A LOT

 

CHEERIO

[DrSomnath999]

^^^

 

what does that mean ,???

is it a warning i couldnt translate that post

 

 

 

CHEERS

[Patrick]

Oh c'est bon Pascal c'est juste une page :( promis après je cause en vieux françoy pour te faire plaisir. Honni soy qui mal y pense.

 

edit : @Drsomnath : it's a frenchglish funny yet angry comment from Pascal asking for more french and less english on this forum.

Modifié le 6 août 2014 par Patrick

[DrSomnath999]

@pascal

 

if anything i am doing against forum rules please do inform me

i would comply .I have no issues

 

 

CHEERS

[pascal]

C'était du second degré (un peu) et cela avait un caractère non ciblé =) mais je suis ravi de voir que mon cryptage Enigmarseille n'a pu être cassé par l'anglois =)

 

don't worry doctor it was only a joke about a very rare english dialect of the south of France

excuse me but i'm not so fluent

[prof.566]

DrSomnath  il a l'habitude de parler aux gens qui ont la bouche paralysée donc ca devrait le faire ;)

[Conan le Barbare]

Sinon en MP...

[Patrick]

@Conan : vu que j'aurai très certainement fait de grosses fautes, mettre cette traduction à dispo peut permettre à quelqu'un d'éventuellement y apporter des corrections. Si DrSomnath décide de poster cette trad à droite à gauche sur le web anglophone il vaut mieux que ce soit impeccable et le plus respectueux de l'article original possible.

 

edit : c'est tout fini. Jetez-moi des cailloux pour corriger les fautes.

 

http://www.air-defense.net/forum/topic/8167-rafale/page-1163#entry790804

Modifié le 6 août 2014 par Patrick

[Coriace]

Un espace de traduction Français => Anglais sur le forum ne serait il pas une bonne chose pour alimenter les fans étrangers sur la magnificence de nos productions? :)

 

Je pense qu'il y a pas mal de volontaires capables et pouvant faire ça. Mais je rejoins mon cocitadin, le topic Rafale n'est pas particulièrement indiqué pour ça.

De plus, laisser en libre accès un scan d'un article issu d'une revue payante n'est pas forcément très légal?

[bubzy]

Bon et sinon... Y'a la traduction auto de google aussi! Et voilà, débat terminé.

[Coriace]

J'imagine que tu n'as jamais eu à exploiter des documents pointus dans une langue que tu ne connaissais pas si tu considères google trad ;)