Inde 2e client export du Rafale

[pascal]

j'irais même plus loin le Jaguar International est un jag' anglais vendu par les anglais

 

@John

 

durant les années fastes (fin des Mirage III/5/50 pour l'export, cadence max des F1 et montée en régime des Super Étendards) à Mérignac on sortait un avions tous les deux/trois jours pas mal pour une entreprise de la taille de DA

[Chimera]

Au cours de la seconde moitié de la décennie 1980, il me semble que le F-16 a été produit à un rythme atteignant sur certains pics 1 unité par jour. 

 

Putain l'écrasement de couts fixes... ca devait être violent...

[Raminagrobis]

Une petite remarque :

 

I - Exportations d'armes françaises en 2014 : 8,06 milliards d'euros (chiffre  en progression de 17% par rapport à 2013

II - Contrat égyptien (24 raffys + 1 frégate) : 4,5 milliards d'euros

III - Contrat Indien (36 raffys) : au moins 4 milliards

 

Autrement dit, rien qu'avec ces deux contrats, on dépasse déjà le total de 2014  ???

L'année peut s'arrêter maintenant, les exportations d'armes françaises seront en hausse

[castle68]

déjà qu'en temps normal je trouve que le temps passe de plus en plus vite, si en plus en Avril c'est déjà la fin d'année !...

[Syvys]

Une petite remarque :

 

I - Exportations d'armes françaises en 2014 : 8,06 milliards d'euros (chiffre  en progression de 17% par rapport à 2013

II - Contrat égyptien (24 raffys + 1 frégate) : 4,5 milliards d'euros

III - Contrat Indien (36 raffys) : au moins 4 milliards

 

Autrement dit, rien qu'avec ces deux contrats, on dépasse déjà le total de 2014  ???

L'année peut s'arrêter maintenant, les exportations d'armes françaises seront en hausse

Ne pas oublier pour 2014 de retirer l'argent qu'on va devoir rembourser aux russes.

[vulkan]

Je ne pense pas que le chiffre des exportations en 2015 comporteront la vente de Rafale à l'Inde car il faut en premier lieu que le 

contrat définitif soit signé ! et en second lieu  , les Rafale indiens ne seront construits qu'en petites quantités annuelles .

 

et dans un autre chapitre , on peut lire ceci :

 

http://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-servic ... 110847.php

•  

[Rufus Shinra]

Ouille.

 

http://thediplomat.com/2015/04/india-makes-it-official-the-mother-of-all-defense-deals-is-dead/

 

With Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s big announcement in Paris that New Delhi would purchase 36 Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters off-the-shelf (prêt-à-porter, if you will) in a government-to-government deal, the future of the $20 billion tender for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) that was being negotiated between France’s Dassault Aviation and the Indian government fell into limbo. That ambiguity was resolved on Monday, three days after Modi’s announcement, when Indian Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar clarified that the $20 billion tender would not move forward. Just like that, the “mother of all defense deals,” as India’s MMRCA project was known, was dead.

Though Parrikar avoided shutting the door on the project entirely, he emphasized that the Indian government would not move forward with those negotiations for the moment, suggesting that if New Delhi does purchase additional Rafales, it will do so in another government-to-government deal. His ministry’s official spokesperson, Sitanshu Kar, tweeted that the “[government-to-government] route [is] better than the [request for proposal] path for acquisition of strategic platforms.” Parrikar additionally said that the government’s decision to go with a direct purchase of 36 Rafale fighters was necessary, likening the deal to a breath of “oxygen” for India’s constrained air force.

Parrikar’s announcement is being read with a degree of trepidation in India’s strategic community. The government’s pragmatic decision to fulfill the Indian Air Force’s short-term need for a multi-role fighter is commendable, but, concurrently, the decision to scrap Dassault’s tender for the broader MMRCA contract is a set back for the Modi government’s bid to indigenize India’s defense production. With the deal announced in Paris, France yields nothing in the way of technology transfer.

As recently as February 2015, reports suggested that a final deal would see India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) build 108 of the envisaged 126 total Rafale jets (with the remaining 18 coming form France). In late 2014, Parrikar met his French counterpart and the two pledged to put negotiations on a “fast track.” France ultimately refused to budge, given Dassault’s concerns about HAL’s ability to construct the Rafale fighters up to spec and liability issues. In the meantime, the IAF needed to see some light at the end of the tunnel and pressure continued to build on the government to deliver some deal. All of this culminated in the recently announced government-to-government agreement in Paris.

Ajai Shukla, a defense commentator for India’s Business Standard wrote after Parrikar’s announcement, that with India’s decision to purchase 36 Rafales in ready-to-fly condition, “the French were rewarded for their obstinacy with exactly what they wanted – an order for fully built aircraft without the need to transfer technology.” For France, the Rafale had turned into somewhat of a marketing nightmare, with prospective buyers bowing out over concerns about the high cost-per-unit and maintenance costs of the Rafale. Thus, concluding a deal with India will be a major breath of relief for the French. Better yet, with no intellectual property transfer, Dassault can expect to cash future Indian checks for the maintenance and upgrades for the Rafale fighters.

If negotiations had persisted, New Delhi would have been able to tout a major win when it came to its ability to indigenously manufacture advanced defense technology, despite the design being of foreign origin. Even if, hypothetically, New Delhi managed to construct a fraction of the 108 Rafale fighters on Indian soil, the deal would have been a major step forward for India’s domestic defense industry. Instead, the procurement process for the Rafale fighters has come to resemble India’s tried-and-tested approach of purchasing ready-built equipment from foreign suppliers.

Finally, Parrikar’s announcement likely means that India’s total Rafale fleet will likely never come close to reaching 126 fighters. Without domestic production, India will be hard pressed to justify future procurement beyond an additional squadron or two. To preemptively stave off critics, Parrikar noted that “all options are being kept open,” including on the issue of building Rafales in India, but with the precedent set in Paris last week, getting to that point will be more of an uphill struggle than ever.

 

On dirait que l'Inde a fait le choix... "intéressant" de rajouter une nouvelle ligne logistique pour à peine 36 appareils, au final. Allez comprendre. Enfin, je ne vais pas trop me plaindre vu qu'ils ont quand même dû débloquer les prochains contrats d'exportation.

 

Mais par contre, j'ai du mal à imaginer qui va vouloir aider HAL maintenant à passer à des standards de production équivalents à ceux des grandes puissances. Après le foutoir du MMRCA, je n'ai pas l'impression que ça va se ruer aux portes.

[olivier lsb]

Ne pas oublier pour 2014 de retirer l'argent qu'on va devoir rembourser aux russes.

Pas exactement non. Le chiffre d'affaire est reconnu lorsque le produit est livré et réceptionné par le client. Les mistrals n'ayant jamais été livrés, ils n'ont jamais généré de CA. Et donc jamais comptabilisé dans les exportations.

Leur non livraison créera une perte pour DCNS (même si partiellement supportée par l'état ) mais ça viendra en moins de son profit, pas en moins des exportations brutes

[French Kiss]

"For France, the Rafale had turned into somewhat of a marketing nightmare, with prospective buyers bowing out over concerns about the high cost-per-unit and maintenance costs of the Rafale. Thus, concluding a deal with India will be a major breath of relief for the French. Better yet, with no intellectual property transfer, Dassault can expect to cash future Indian checks for the maintenance and upgrades for the Rafale fighters."

 

C'est petit comme tacle, d'autant que l'evaluation a quand meme montre que le cost per unit et les couts de maintenance etaient les plus faibles parmi les jets qui ont participe a cet appel d'offre. Dans l'histoire c'est quand meme HAL qui a fait capote le deal a mon sens, en refusant de realiser les investissements necessaires pour mettre en place les equipements et les procedures  necessaires a la production du Rafale selon des criteres permettant a Dassault de realiser les ToT et de s'assurer du niveau de qualite des appareils en sortie de chaine, ainsi que de leur cout.

 

Sinon, si l'auteur de l'article a bien analyse la situation, il faut croire que les Indiens ne sont pas pres de progresser sur la voie du "make in India" dans les secteurs de pointe de l'aeronautique.

[prof.566]

Ajai shukla, depuis que l'on lui a dénié un vol sur Rafale est devenu violemment anti rafale. Et ultra pro F18 ou F-35 au passage. Il serait payé que ca ne m'étonnerait pas.

[g4lly]

C'est le flou total ... a priori les rumeurs d'annulation du MMRCA on été clairement démenti ... sans que les démentis n'apporte d'éclairage sur l'avenir du MMRCA ... repoussé a Mathusalem, altéré, annulé ... mystère.

 

De l'avis de tous 36 Rafales c'est insuffisant pour les interets et les besoin de l'Inde, donc ce serait un avant gout d'un autre contrat Rafale, mais négocié différement.

 

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/air-space/strike/2015/04/14/indias-plans-unclear-after-rafale-decision/25757903/

 

NEW DELHI — Following India's sudden decision to buy 36 Rafales from France straight off the production line last week, the next steps in New Delhi's plan to eventually outfit its Air Force with 126 of the Dassault jets remain unclear.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced on April 10 that 36 jets will be purchased through a government-to-government deal. Since India made Dassault the preferred bidder for the $12 billion program in 2012, the plan had been to purchase 18 jets and build the remaining 108 in India through a license.

Indian Defence Ministry sources said the deal was struck by the Prime Minister's Office and therefore have no details. MoD spokesman Sitanshu Kar refused to comment on how the rest of the deal will play out.

"A car can not run on two paths [simultaneously]," Kar tweeted on Monday, attributing the comment to Indian Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar. However, no official would say whether it means the plan to buy 126 jets will be canceled or altered.

DEFENSE NEWS

Rafale Proposal Could Speed Deliveries to India

MoD sources say they learned of the direct purchase of the 36 Rafales when Modi made the announcement at the April 10 press conference.

"The decision is no doubt of the [Prime Minister's Office] and how much the MoD and other agencies were kept in the loop is not clear, but a number of options may have been considered, of which the final as announced by the prime minister in consultation with the French government at the highest level may have been adopted," said defense analyst Rahul Bhonsle. "Such decisions require to be cleared formally by the Cabinet Committee on Security, whether this formality was done is not clear."

The Ministry of External Affairs, which reported the joint statement in Paris on April 10, said: "[The] Government of India conveyed to the Government of France that in view of the critical operational necessity for multirole combat aircraft for Indian Air Force, Government of India would like to acquire [36] Rafale jets in fly-away condition as quickly as possible. The two leaders agreed to conclude an inter-governmental agreement for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway."

French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will probably go to India in the next few weeks to negotiate the deal, a defense official said in Paris.

The French authorities and Dassault are staying silent on the details of the deal, which caught all by surprise, a parliamentary official said.

Dassault and the Defense Ministry were unavailable for comment.

Pending a formal announcement of the cancellation of the ongoing request for proposals (RFP), speculation abounds on what will happen to this big-ticket purchase program, dubbed the "mother of all deals."

"Scrapping of the RFP is up to the government. However, the prime minister's statement is very clear that the 36 aircraft deal is one in parallel to the RFP process — so, it appears that the RFP has not been withdrawn," said Manhoman Bahadur, retired air vice marshal and fellow at the New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies.

The price of purchase of the fly-away Rafale is a detail that still must be worked out, an MoD official said.

What prompted the sudden announcement will remain a subject of hot debate in the days ahead.

"This is a classic case of a geopolitically driven strategic partnership being leveraged by the two heads of government to add a new energy to India's defense acquisition process and Dassault's imperative for Rafale export that had got logjammed by Dassault-MoD bureaucracies' inability to move forward," said Kapil Kak, retired air vice marshal and defense analyst.

Analysts here say India will order more Rafales over the proposed 36.

"The [Air Force] has done that before — it may be recollected that we had bought only 40 Mirage 2000s," Bahudar said. "Yes, it does open up another supply line, which if restricted to only 40 aircraft, would be costly."

With the future of the $12 billion project unclear and the increased direct purchases of the Rafale, possibilities have emerged on how the Indian Air Force will buy the remaining 90 fighters. There is no clarity on what happens next.

"I do not think the 2007 tender would be scrapped and a fresh RFP issued. The deal for 36 fighters, which India expects to induct in two years, would give both India and France some more time to negotiate the terms for 126 fighters," said Laxman Kumar Behera, research fellow at the Institute for Defense Studies and Analyses.

Analysts say the Russians could receive increased orders for SU-30MKI aircraft.

"The Russians may also benefit as additional orders for Sukhoi may be in the offing, given that the plan for buying all 126 Rafale may be scaled down to between 60-90," Bhonsle said. "The deficiency will be made up by additional Su-30 MKI."

"India has not forgotten the Russians and the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft will definitely happen," said Ankur Gupta, defense analyst with Ernest & Young.

Pierre Tran in Paris contributed to this report.

[clem200]

Que ce soit insuffisant est la seul info do,t tout le monde est sur ^^ 

 

3 petits escadrons de Rafale quand on sait qu'ils veulent une armée de l'air à plus de 40 escadrons il y a un trou dans raquette ...

[gargouille]

Bref il est urgent d'attendre.

[pascal]

@clem2000

Certes mais un escadron de rafale doit bien valoir 4 escadrons de Mig 21 ...

la surface du tamis de la raquette sera plus petite mais les cordes seront plus tendues ...

[vulkan]

L'armée de l'air indienne a tout de même de quoi faire trembler le ciel aujourd'hui et demain plus encore ! :

 

Source Wikipedia :

 

AL TejasChasseur multirôle0 (+38)

Soukhoï Su-30Chasseur multirôle84 (+150)

Mirage 2000Chasseur multirôle50

RafaleChasseur multirôle0 (+36, +126 ?, non signées)

MiG-29Chasseur71

MiG-27Avion d'attaque au sol130

MiG-21Chasseur358

SEPECAT JaguarAvion d'attaque au sol111

Mil Mi-24Hélicoptère de combat25Alouette IIHélicoptère multirôle24Alouette IIIHélicoptère multirôle92HAL DhruvHélicoptère multirôle24 (+200)Mil Mi-17Hélicoptère multirôle52 (+80)Mil Mi-8Hélicoptère de transport82Mil Mi-26Hélicoptère de transport6An-32Avion de transport158HS 748Avion de transport64Il-76Avion de transport31 (+3)BAe HawkAvion d'entraînement15 (+106)HAL HJT-36 SitaraAvion d'entraînement12 (+175)

Modifié le 15 avril 2015 par vulkan

[pascal]

Pour ce qui est d’aujourd’hui il convient d'assortir ces chiffres du taux de disponibilité qui va bien, sans parler de l'aptitude à affronter une menace moderne.

Ne pas oublier que le Mig 21 est de la génération Mirage III C et que le Mig 27 est de celle du F1 A.

 

Ces chiffrent sonnent plutôt pour moi comme une confirmation, l'IAF est cruellement en manque de moyens. Dans un passé récent les Indiens perdaient 20 avions par an dont une très grosses majorité de Fishbed

[clem200]

Effectivement.

En lisant cela on obtient grossièrement 200 chasseurs potables. Pour un pays si grand et avec pas mal de pressions aux frontières ce n'est pas top.

[olivier lsb]

Je n'arrive pas à recouper l'information mais apparemment l'inde aurait passé commande pour le FPGA Russe.... mais je suis un peu dubitatif. Quelqu'un aurait des infos sur le ? ?

http://thesentinel.ca/russia-to-sell-127-fgfa-fighter-aircrafts-to-india/

[seb24]

Je n'arrive pas à recouper l'information mais apparemment l'inde aurait passé commande pour le FPGA Russe.... mais je suis un peu dubitatif. Quelqu'un aurait des infos sur le ? ?

http://thesentinel.ca/russia-to-sell-127-fgfa-fighter-aircrafts-to-india/

La seul source que je trouve ce sont des sources de 2 mois parlant d'une future signature (et sources russes plutôt trop optimistes)... Mais rien d'autre et depuis il y a eu le refroidissement des relations inde/russie. Du coup j'ai quelques doutes que ce soit vrai. Surtout que sur le FGFA comme je le comprends ils ne sont pas encore au point ou ils peuvent commander des avions.

[Claudio Lopez]

C'est quoi le FGFA ? Le nom donné au SU-35 ?

[Gallium nitride]

Fith Generation Fighter Aircraft. Autant dire que c'est assez vague.

[seb24]

C'est quoi le FGFA ? Le nom donné au SU-35 ?

C'est le nom donné a la version indienne du T-50.

[Claudio Lopez]

Ha bon ? Je pensais qu'il s' appelait PAK-FA ? Que c'est compliqué tout ces termes...

[Gallium nitride]

FGFA, c'est le nom du programme, comme MMRCA.

[Claudio Lopez]

Ha ok ! Merci l'ami ! :)