L'Inde

[Claudio Lopez]

Histoire de rassurer tout le monde  =)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Government-to-procure-126-French-combat-aircraft/articleshow/15761776.cms

Antony said, "the issues raised by you were examined by Independent monitors who have concluded that the approach and methodology adopted by the CNC in the evaluation of the commercial proposals thus far has been reasonable and appropriate and within terms of the Request for Proposal and Defence Procurement Procedure."

:happy: :happy:

[Dabohaze]

Il me semble que cette réponse d'Antony à Reddy datait de début été, non?

Sinon d'après un post de Philip sur Bharat-Rakshak, HAL joue au boulet:

"IMR Aug issue reports that the deal signing is being delayed by "9 months" becasue HAL were late in meeting the deadline for "submitting their plan for financial and manufacturing tasks".The MOD has asked HAL to "focus on building airframes,engines and system and weapons integration of Rafale aircraft,rather than on meeting its portion of the $5.5B offset requirements as part of the deal".

On était peut-être pas très loin de la même situation narrait en page 159. :lol:

Ceci dit, j'ai de plus en plus l'impression que le gouvernement indien veut finaliser le contrat au plus vite.

[French Kiss]

Voui boh, en Inde tout concept relatif a la vitesse de quoique ce soit, doit etre considere avec precaution, le facteur temps pouvant tendre vers l'infini (la vitesse tendant donc ainsi vers 0-zero) sans moyen de savoir pourquoi...

[zx]

pour l'instant, je touche du bois  :lol:

http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/thales-cree-une-co-entreprise-en-inde.N180971

Thales crée une co-entreprise en Inde

Le groupe d'électronique de défense va fabriquer des radars civils et militaires avec Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), spécialisée dans l’électronique de défense.

Thales a annoncé la signature de cette collaboration le 29 août. Elle aura pour objectif de développer et produire des radars civils et de défense pour le marché indien et international. Selon la revue spécialisée DefenseNews, les radars seront les premiers à être produits en Inde.

Dans le détail, le groupe français va détenir 26% du capital de la nouvelle société. Ce pourcentage est le maximum autorisé par la loi indienne dans le secteur de la défense.

Le groupe est déjà présent sur le marché indien avec un contrat de 2,7 milliards d’euros décroché en 2011 pour moderniser 51 appareils Mirage 2000 de l’industriel Dassault pour l’armée de l’air indienne. Il est aussi partie prenante de l’équipe formée avec Dassault et Safran pour la vente à l’Inde de 126 avions Rafale.

Pour l’heure les gouvernements indien et français doivent encore donner leur approbation.

 

[zx]

http://idrw.org/?p=13685

The Rafale turbulence in India

In India, there are voices to criticize the tender won in January by the aircraft manufacturer Dassault. Already, Germany and Russia say they are ready to make new proposals.The sale of Rafale to India announced last January with a bang is a path full of pitfalls. It is true that the issue warranted to declare victory since twenty years after its launch, the fighter manufactured by Dassault Aviation, Thales and Safran - the Rafale team – won his first export contract.

A huge order of 126 units amounting € 9.2 billion.procedure is in its second stage: after winning the tender for its very competitive price (L1), Dassault and its partners are now “phase of exclusive negotiations” aimed at detailing the requirements for Indian profile of the aircraft, technology transfer and commercial counterparts. However, according to our information, many obstacles delaying negotiations.

Or force the two sides to resume the process from scratch. barrage Last in date. He left India in July and follows a first complaint filed in March by a member of the Indian, but was not successful. This time, two independent experts Contract Negotiation Commitee, the very official commission in India, manages exclusive negotiations phase, questioned the procedure after which the offer of the Rafale team was considered the better financially, facing the European consortium Eurofighter, led notably by the British and the Germans.

According to comments reported by a journalist from an Indian newspaper, the government of India would have said he was “determined to retake the entire process , including tender, fine-tooth comb once the exclusive negotiations come to an end. “ A position confirmed by AK Antony, Defence Minister of India, who stressed that his government would not hesitate to terminate the contract at any stage or if the allocation process appears to have been flawed.

No matter the effect for the Indians, who have made this contract the “Mother Deal,” the mother of all contracts, afford the slightest mistake. It was enough for Russia and Germany réinvitent in the game “We have information that a new tender is in the air,” said, a few days ago, Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy director of the Agency for the Russian military, while Moscow began a phase of research and development on a future fighter Indo-Russian.

statements destabilizing Even in Germany, where Andreas Schockenoff, near CDU Angela Merkel said: “The builders working on the Eurofighter offer and c is a subject of negotiations between the European consortium and the Indian government. “Officially, France and India want reassuring. “Exclusive negotiations are proceeding normally” highlighted, July 26, Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation. Even reassuring in India. “I am confident that our government has made the technological and financial analysis with the utmost rigor. Negotiations are progressing successfully, “says Rakesh Sood, Ambassador of India to France. Each other and recognize, however, that discussions are complex, each party defending its interests more closely.

[zx]

humm ! ca essaye de buzzer

http://epaper.dnaindia.com/story.aspx?edorsup=Sup&wintype=popup&queryed=860009&querypage=1&boxid=207989&id=8918&eddate=2012-9-03&ed_date=2012-9-03&ed_code=860009

[laurent simon]

Un article dans un journal indien, pas tendre avec le Rafale, DA et la bureaucratie indienne.

"Detail lies in hidden costs"

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/52381-detail-lies-in-hidden-costs.html

Extraits (conclusion)

...

What can one expect from here? Four things:

-First, Dassault’s final submission will take much longer to materialise — possibly another year or so.

-Second, a stream of news reports that we’ve already heard a thousand times before will come out telling us how unprepared our institutions are to receive this technology.

-Third, when that document from Dassault does indeed materialise, expect a minimum 170 per cent jump in costs attributed to “time delay”, “unforeseen problems” and “supply chain variables”. Let’s not forget that, when this competition started out in 2007 the deal was meant to cost us $10.6 billion. Now the figure has already doubled to $20 billion, while any intelligent person who bothered studying the publicly available costs would have fixed the price at $27 billion as far back as 2009.

-Finally, India will not achieve self-sufficiency in combat aviation any time this century — after all, if standardised tests produce bureaucrats this daft, HAL and DRDO’s similarly standardised test scientists can hardly be expected to be much better?

At some point, one needs to introspect very deeply. This is a complex societal matrix of woe combining a broken education system, a complete lack of governance, a total lack of accountability, institutional collapse, a worrying lack of innovation, introspection and self-correction all leading up to near total intellectual ossification.  ...

et le commentaire de zx :

Pour ma vue, on se doute de qui ca vient, mais pour l'instant aucun blog sérieux ou site spécialisé, meme pas sur livefist qui est assez bien informe, ne confirme pas ces informations.

ca me fait penser à mint qui annoncait à corps et a cri la victoire de l'eurofighter pendant 2 semaines, puis paf, rafale, faut s'attendre à voir ce genre d'action se multiplier pour faire le buzz. vu la source obscure, c'est pas

très fiable. ca ne veut pas forcément dire qu'elle est fausse, mais elle reste douteuse en attendant de meilleure sources.

Comme par hasard, ca intervient juste après  la constatation par le comité qu'il n'y avait pas d'irrégularité dans le processus du rafale et que les négociations pouvaient

continuer et même s'accélérer pour 2013.  :lol: bizarre, bizarre,  (économie ralentie, coûts dissimulés, annulation du mmrca,etc..) ca pleut des cordes en ce moment.

Evidemment toutes les manipulations d'infos sont possibles.

Simplement, une des infos est déduite d'un article de "l'Usine Nouvelle", selon lequel 50% du Rafale continuerait à être produit en France (ce qui ne me surprenait pas, mais semble être une surprise selon l'auteur indien de l'article).

[prof.566]

ci joint le lien de l'article en question (qui je crois a deja ete poste, mais pas sur) http://www.usinenouvelle.com/article/le-rafale-indien-resterait-largement-produit-en-france.N180558

L'usine nouvelle a modifé sa prose :

Toutefois, des sources françaises précisent que le partage du travail resterait très en faveur des entreprises françaises, estimant même qu'elles allaient conserver largement plus de 50% de la production associée sur les premières années du futur contrat. Et non sur l'ensemble du partenariat, comme il avait été précédemment écrit dans cet article.

[Claudio Lopez]

Déjà rien que la première phrase prête à sourire . :lol:

Rafale may have won the contest for the supply of Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft to India, but there's a strong possibility that we will end up paying far, far more than the bid amount. It appears that Rafale had quoted an unrealistically low amount to win the contract

Mais il croit au père noel ce "journaliste" indien ! :lol:

Evidemment que l'inde va payer beaucoup plus chère les rafales si elle souhaite fabriquer toute les pièces elle-même !

Le prix proposé par Dassault était (je suppose) un prix avec les rafales dont les pièces sortiraient des usines françaises !

Certes on sait que l'assemblage n'est pas un cout important dans la construction d'un avion.

En effet, si l'inde souhaite avoir un transfert de technologie "complet" , il faut qu'elle mettent en place tout l'appareil industriel qui va avec et donc mettre la main au porte monnaie  et donc là la facture pourrait au moins doubler ....

[Castor]

Déjà rien que la première phrase prête à sourire . :lol:

Mais il croit au père noel ce "journaliste" indien ! :lol:

Evidemment que l'inde va payer beaucoup plus chère les rafales si elle souhaite fabriquer toute les pièces elle-même !

Le prix proposé par Dassault était (je suppose) un prix avec les rafales dont les pièces sortiraient des usines françaises !

Certes on sait que l'assemblage n'est pas un cout important dans la construction d'un avion.

En effet, si l'inde souhaite avoir un transfert de technologie "complet" , il faut qu'elle mettent en place tout l'appareil industriel qui va avec et donc mettre la main au porte monnaie  et donc là la facture pourrait au moins doubler ....

Ce qui est surprenant c'est de se réveiller maintenant sur le montant du contrat. Il y déjà un bon moment que la somme officieuse avancée pour le MMRCA est de minimum $20 bn. Je ne serais pas étonné de savoir qu’après la victoire pour la L1 il y ai des clauses rendant possible la réévaluation des prix.

Par contre je trouve ça bien vu en termes de communication de montrer que les entreprises françaises vont conserver une grosse part de la charge de travail. Ça met en difficulté les tenants du "on vend que 16 rafales, on s'est fait enfler".

[Philippe Top-Force]

Radars : Thales crée une coentreprise en Inde Thales va créer avec Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), une co-entreprise spécialisée dans l'électronique de défense. Elle aura pour objectif de concevoir, développer et produire des radars civils et de défense pour le marché indien et international. Thales détiendra 26% de la nouvelle société, taux maximum autorisé par la loi indienne dans le secteur de la Défense. L'accord nécessite néanmoins l'autorisation des deux gouvernements, indien et français. Thales est partie prenante de l'équipe formée avec Dassault Aviation et Safran pour la vente, à l'Inde, de 126 avions Rafale.

30 août 12 - usinenouvelle.com

[Claudio Lopez]

Ca veut dire que les négociations avancent  TRES TRES BIENS =)

[TMor]

Tous les signaux "normaux", "officiels", sont positifs. Faut bien que quelqu'un contrebalance !

[glitter]

Un article dans un journal indien, pas tendre avec le Rafale, DA et la bureaucratie indienne.

"Detail lies in hidden costs"

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/item/52381-detail-lies-in-hidden-costs.html

Vu la tronche des precedents articles de ce "journaliste", on est au dela de ne pas etre tendre avec le Rafale.  O0

[TMor]

Ni avec la vérité...  :lol:

[glitter]

Ni avec la vérité...  :lol:

son article ou il avait intervertis les points forts du Rafale avec le typhoon, au debut, ca m'avait enerve, au bout d'un moment, c'etait une oeuvre d'art. 

[zx]

rien de plus de ce qu'on sait déjà,

http://blog.avionslegendaires.net/2012/09/inde-et-si-le-dassault-rafale-ratait-a-la-derniere-minute-le-contrat-mmrca/

http://m.economictimes.com/news/politics/nation/talks-on-only-with-french-company-dassault-aviation-for-126-rafale-aircraft-government/articleshow/15621399.cms

L’Inde est aujourd’hui confrontée à une baisse de ses escadrons de chasse. Ses plans pour enrayer cette chute sont dans une large mesure basés sur l’introduction rapide du Rafale. Ceci devrait en partie nous rassurer sur la conclusion prochaine de l’accord.

Précisons enfin que (comme le souligne le directeur de la communication de chez Dassault sur Twitter) les déclarations officielles indiennes indiquent que le processus est en bonne voie et que Dassault est le seul et unique interlocuteur. Rappelons tout de même, qu’en 2007 l’Inde alors en négociation exclusive avec Eurocopter (comme Dassault aujourd’hui) avait cassé l’appel d’offres suite à des pressions américaines. Cela pour un contrat bien moins important et dans un contexte économique différent d’aujourd’hui. Donc restons prudent…

[zx]

On the same frequency

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-miscellaneous/article3864147.ece

Defence public sector unit Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and French security solutions company Thales have announced a joint venture to manufacture civilian and defence radars. Manufacturing operations are expected to begin over the next one and a half years.

This decision of the directors of both the companies, however, is subject to mandatory approvals from both the Indian and French governments. The companies had signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) to the effect about three years ago on November 17, 2009.

“The joint venture company will focus on the design, development, marketing, supply and support of civilian and select defence radars for Indian and global markets,” BEL sources said. The defence PSU has been a major player in the electronics field in India — manufacturing radars for military purposes.

The parent companies aim to make the joint venture company a centre of excellence with the ability to offer solutions specifically aimed at meeting the needs of both Indian and global customers. Thales is most likely to tap its offsets commitment with this venture, according to defence experts.

In accordance with Indian regulations, Thales will be able to hold only 26 per cent equity — the maximum allowed holding by any foreign company in the defence sector, while Bharat Electronics will hold the remaining 74 per cent. The venture will make BEL part of the global supply chain for Thales. Under earlier licence deals with the French company, BEL had built the Thales LW04, DA08 and ZW06 naval radars.

Thales is expected to provide its expertise in system engineering, integration and testing, along with some technology transfer. Thales had recently demonstrated its capabilities in air defence solutions, force protection, missile systems and rocket systems, including a mobile ground C4I system for complete airspace surveillance and its mobile short-range air defence system in India. The company had recently won a contract to upgrade 49 Mirage 2000s of the Indian Air Force (of which two were lost recently) to bring them to the full Mirage 2000v5 Mk 2 standards. The deal includes RDY-3 radar with greater air-to-air and air-to-ground capability, a new night-vision-compatible all-digital cockpit and improved electronic warfare systems.

India’s defence procurement process requires offsets of at least 30 per cent, and it is likely that the joint venture might also satisfy offsets associated with India’s selection of the Dassault Rafale for its medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirement for 126 fighters. Thales is a partner in the Rafale programme.

Work on the Mirage upgrades will be performed by Dassault, manufacturer of the aircraft, along with Thales as weapons systems integrator, MBDA as missile supplier and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

Thales is a global technology leader for the defence and security and the aerospace and transport markets. In 2011, the company generated revenues of €13 billion (equivalent of $18.2 billion) with 67,000 employees in more than 56 countries. The company designs, develops and deploys equipment, systems and services that meet the most complex security requirements.

BEL was established in Bangalore in 1954 to meet the specialised electronic needs of the Indian defence services. It offers products and services in a wide spectrum of technology like radars, military communications, naval systems and electronic warfare systems among others.

Public sector BEL and France’s Thales to jointly design and manufacture both civilian and military radars in India

[zx]

Gné ! ca me parait bien tôt    mais ca pousse, affaire à suivre.

http://www.mbctv.co.in/viewnews.php?news_id=12368

edit:  un autre lien (The Economic Time)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/india-to-ink-11-billion-mmrca-deal-with-rafale-by-next-month-indian-air-force-official/articleshow/16312213.cms

Bangalore, Sept 8 (PTI): India plans to sign the USD 11 billion MMRCA(Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal with French Rafale by the end of this month-end or next month, a senior Indian Air Force official said today.

"I find no reason why it shouldn't be signed by the end of this month or next month", Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Training Command, IAF, Air Marshal Rajinder Singh told PTI here.

He indicated that negotiations are currently on with regard to pricing for the 126-aircraft deal. "There is money....this thing here and there (pricing being finalised)".

The Air Marshal admitted to "some problems" (on pricing) but asserted that it's not unusual in such big deals. "It should come through", he said, adding that the first aircraft under the MMRCA deal would start "flowing in" in 2017.

The Air Marshal dismissed reports quoting Russian and German officials who had claimed that the deal is not final yet and that it's still up in the air.

"Nothing of that sort", he said, pointing out India had already declared the lowest bidder -- Rafale -- for the MMRCA deal.

Vyacheskav Dzirkaln, Deputy Director of Russia's Federal Service for Military Technical Cooperation,was recently quoted as saying:"I wouldn't say that MMRCA tender is a closed issue.

We have information that the tender is still up in the air".

The deputy chief of the ruling CDU-led coalition's parliamentary committee in Bundestag (lower house of German Parliament) for foreign and defence affairs, Andreas Schockenhoff, reportedly said recently the last word had not yet been heard on the MMRCA deal.

Russia's MiG-35 did not make it to the MMRCA shortlist, which also included Eurofighter Typhoon,designed by a European consortium in which Germany is a part, besides Rafale.

Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of an Indian Airforce Exhibition here on the occasion of IAF's 80th anniversary celebration, the Air Marshal said India would have one of the most modern airforces of the world in the next three-four years, as he touched upon recent contracts on acquisition of aircraft, weapon platforms, systems and radars, among others, for IAF.

"By 2017, you will have (in IAF) the most modern Air Force in the world", he said.

The Air Marshal said as the demand would increase for personnel to manage military hardware, the number of cadets being trained at Air Force Academy at any point of time is planned to be tripled in the next seven years.

Asked about steps being taken to attract more people to opt for a career in IAF, he said: "It's not the number that we are not getting; it's the quality we are not getting".

"It's obvious that in the civil field, money is more, freedom is much more; so one likes to stick on (there)", he said, but added that people who come to know about IAF realise that it (IAF) is a way of life. "I don't think you can have a better life in any other system".

[TMor]

C'est troublant.  :-X

Au moment où A&C nous dit qu'on aurait entériné un peu plus de la moitié des jalons, là, il y a ce monsieur qui veut me faire avancer la sortie de champagne du réfrigérateur...

[Chevalier Gilles]

"By 2017, you will have (in IAF) the most modern Air Force in the world", he said.

c'est ca et les US, les russes et les chinois auront disparus de la carte du monde d'un coup de baguette magique

[zx]

cela reste l'avis d'un militaire, pas des décideurs, on est certainement à mi chemin.

[zx]

tiens ! EADS a énervé l'Inde

http://odinflight.odinenglish.odin.com.pt/?p=305&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=indian-mrtt-tender-delayed-again

India’s Ministry of Defence (MoD) has deferred the opening of commercial bids in the USD2 billion procurement of six aircraft for its Multi Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) requirement. EADS is offering its Airbus Military A330 MRTT, while Russia’s Rosoboronexport is offering the Ilyushin Il-78

[zx]

rafalenews, reprend l'info, mas avec un truc que je ne savais pas,  ils vont commandés 2 raffy prod ?

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2012/09/mmrca-contract-for-126-rafale-to-be.html

In June, HAL also announced that a $108 millions investment in 2 Rafale production facilities (Airframe and engine) has been cleared.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/hal-to-invest-in-mmrca-production-facilities-372826/

[Darkjmfr]

Nan, une usine pour la cellule et l'autre pour les moteurs.