L'Inde

[Mani]

IAF sending six Su-30s, Il-78 to France for 'Garuda-II'

New Delhi, June 6 (UNI) The Indian Air Force is set to further augment its power projection skills -- in beyond visual range (BVR) combat and air-to-air refuelling -- in its second joint fighter exercise with the French Air Force.

After the success of 'Garuda-I' -- the first-ever joint exercise with fighters in India -- at Gwalior in February 2003, the two air forces will hold 'Garuda-II' in France after skipping a year.

The 15-day exercise, at Istres Air Force Base between June 16 and 30, will see the IAF's Su-30s competing against the French Mirage 2000-5, which is one of the four multi-role fighter aircraft the IAF is considering buying.

''Six Su-30s, along with an Il-78 mid-air refueller and an Il-76 transport aircraft, will be flagged off from Bareilly AFB by IAF Vice Chief Air Marshal S K Malik on June 9,'' Assistant Chief of Air Staff (Ops C&D) Air Vice Marshal Sumit Mukherji today told newspersons.

The aircraft will fly to Jamnagar, where they will stay for two days and leave on June 12 for Istres, where they are expected to reach on June 15, after a single stop in Jyanklis (Egypt), he added.

Describing the French Air Force as an extremely ''experienced and capable'' force, AVM Mukherji said that it had had the opportunity to exercise with the US, Singapore, Thailand, Australia as well as the NATO countries.

''We have had a fruitful exchange with them, and look forward to learning from their experience and employment philosophy,'' he said, adding the French also would have their first exposure to the Su-30 and were awaiting it keenly.

Asked if the IAF intended to gain more experience in BVR operations and mid-air refuelling, as the French had demonstrated their prowess in these two procedures during 'Garuda-I' two years ago, the ACAS (Ops C&D) said all these formed part of the learning process of such endeavours.

''Our armed forces have been somewhat insular...just exercising with each other, though our equipment was at par with the best in the world. However, all this changed in the last few years, with increasing military cooperation and exercises with friendly countries,'' he said.

''During Garuda-I, we realised that while we were flying the same aircraft (Mirage-2000) as the French, they were using it in a somewhat different way and getting good results...this formed a part of our learning process,'' AVM Mukherjee later told UNI.

Sukhoï 30 MKI contre Mirage 2000-5, vos pronostics ? :rolleyes:

[Julien]

Ce ne sont pas des MKI

[littleboy]

Sukhoï 30 MKI contre Mirage 2000-5, vos pronostics ? :rolleyes:

Si les 2000-5 pouvaient gagner ça ferait un bon argument de vente pour le gros marché indien... Espérons que nos pilotes seront meilleurs que les Indiens :D

[Arnaud]

en tout cas l'année derniere les F-15C Americains se sont pris une petite dérouillé contre les SU-30 Indiens mais ils se sont rattrapés par la suite :lol:

[Philippe Top-Force]

C'est un défi qui peut permettre à Dassault de vendre 126 de ses engins.

[Arnaud]

Tout à fait d'accord Philippe 8)

[Philippe Top-Force]

Inde Echec du second tir du missile longue portée AGM-142 Raptor (Rafael), à partir d'un Mirage 2000H. :oops:

[GALIL10]

Inde

Echec du second tir du missile longue portée AGM-142 Raptor (Rafael), à partir d'un Mirage 2000H. :oops:

quelle sont les consequences de cette echec philippe?

il s'agit d'un tir experimental ou bien l'inde a deja acheté des missille popeye?

[Philippe Top-Force]

Cela ne va pas empêcher les 2 pays de continuer à coopérer sur le plan militaire ,un échec ne remettant pas en cause ni la valeur du vecteur ni la valeur du missile.

[GALIL10]

Cela ne va pas empêcher les 2 pays de continuer à coopérer sur le plan militaire ,un échec ne remettant pas en cause ni la valeur du vecteur ni la valeur du missile.

certe, je suis d'accord mais quelle autre vecteur l'inde a t'elle ?

[Kovy]

su-30mki, mig-29K (bientot), Jaguar, sea harier

[francois]

Le Qatar renoncera t-il a vendre ses m2000-5 à l'inde? C'est ce que laisse supposer cet article qui dit que l'inde propose un prix trop bas pour les 12 avion (env 560m$ contre 750md$ voulu par le Qatar!). Le Qatar pourrait les refourguer aux EAU ou à Taiwan (a mon avis peu probable pour ces derniers)...

http://staging.defensenews.com/story.php?F=996690&C=mideast

Du coup les 126 m2000-5 ont encore moins de chance d'être commandés non? :?

[glitter]

Low Bid Scuttles Deal Qatar Halts Mirage Talks With India By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI Qatar has ceased negotiations with India for the sale of 12 used Mirage 2000-5 aircraft following a $350 million bid made by the Indian Defence Ministry. Ministry sources here, who confirmed this development, said the Indian Air Force was very upset over the bid. The service’s technical team had valued the 12 fully equipped planes and support at $565 million and submitted its evaluation to the Defence Ministry, the final authority in arms negotiations. Qatar had offered the aircraft to India for $750 million. The Qatari Mirage 2000-5s offered to India are equipped with multitargeting advanced radar, an integrated electronic warfare suite and a glass cockpit. A diplomat at the Qatari Embassy here said the Indian offer for the 12 aircraft was so low that it showed New Delhi is not serious about buying the fighter planes, which now will be sold to another country. Qatar put the aircraft up for sale in 2002. The Indian Air Force’s technical team visited Qatar to inspect the aircraft in March 2003, and teams from Qatar and India worked out a price for the used aircraft in April 2004. Air Force sources said they are surprised that the Defence Ministry submitted such a low bid and scuttled the deal, saying the aircraft are like new and have 85 percent of their service life left. Service sources said the Air Force estimated the 12 planes’ base cost at $463.5 million, less 20 percent due to the 15 percent service life consumed. That put the base price at $371 million. The cost of equipment was put at $74 million, 96 Mica missiles at $67 million, Magic missiles at $5 million, and the cost of support equipment for the missiles at $48 million — a total of $565 million. A Defence Ministry official said the final bid offered to Qatar was based on depreciation. However, Air Force sources said the estimated cost of the Qatari aircraft included depreciation, reduction due to obsolescence of technology and the life of the missiles. “The Defence Ministry bureaucrats calculated the depreciation like they do on automobiles, and not aircraft,” said one service source. The Air Force is particularly worried that the Qatari aircraft will end up in Pakistan. Besides Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Taiwan also have shown interest in buying the the Mirage 2000-5 aircraft. Le deal serait complètement hors de question. Je vais vraiment finir par croire que l'Inde l'a fait rien que pour empêcher un client potable d'arrivers à ses fins. Bref, le Quatar recherche de nouveaux clients dont Taiwan (un peu sulfureux, mais quand on produit du pétrole, la Chine n'a pas vraiment son mot à dire) ou les EAU. Autre possibilité que les islamistes locaux apprécierait, un "don" au Pakistan (on n'en par le pas dans l'article).

[Philippe Top-Force]

Quelques indices de l'épisode indien :

:arrow: 2 exercices Garuda 1 et 2 concluants et encourageants pour les 2 armées de l'air.

:arrow: des Indiens qui veulent discuter de l'acquisition de transfert de technologies avec les USA.

:arrow: les Français qui sortent durant la fin de l'exercice 3 Mirage tiret 5 au standard très proche de celui en compétition en Inde.

:arrow: les conclusions que les Mirage C/N et Su-30 MKI se sont tenus dans un mouchoir de poche au niveau capacitaire.

:arrow: des spécialistes indiens faisant remarquer que les versions les plus récentes du F-16 block 60 et du F-18E ne sont pas des chasseurs aussi complets ni aussi capables que les Gripen ,Mig 29M/M2 russe ou les 2000-5 français.

:arrow: négociation en cours entre Paris et New Delhi pour la production sous licence en Inde du Mirage 2000.

Donc affaire à suivre......

En espérant que cela ne tarde pas comme avec les Scorpène.

Pour le Scorpène ,il y a quelque espoir qui s'active ,toutefois au sujet des 126 ,un article indien du 1 août semble accréditait la thèse Russe.

:arrow: New procurement guidelines set by the Indian government could tilt the competition for the country's planned $9-billion procurement of 126 new fighter aircraft in favor of the Russian MiG-29SMT.

Je ne suis pas entiérement d'accord avec toi Julien ,ce que je sais d'une part ,c'est qu'il y a des rebondissements dans cette affaire ,que les USA reviennent en force et qu'il faut prendre en compte tous les paramètres :

:arrow: Considérations politiques et stratégiques

:arrow: Offsets

:arrow: Transferts de technologies

:arrow: Discussions latentes

:arrow: quoique disent les pilotes ,les journalistes ,les spécialistes ,les rumeurs ,les DECISIONS FINALES seront prises par les politiques.

Quelqu'un sait si réellement ,Boeing (Congrès USA) vont laisser construire ses Super Hornet F/A 18 E/F sur le sol indien ?

Si oui ? l'affaire est dans le sac US. ;)

Les africains du Sud (Denel )en savent quelque chose avec l'annulation de la vente de leur automoteur à l'Inde.

DCN est toujours en attente de décision pour les scorpène.

[Julien]

Low Bid Scuttles Deal

Qatar Halts Mirage Talks With India

By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI

Qatar has ceased negotiations with India for the sale of 12 used Mirage 2000-5 aircraft following a $350 million bid made by the Indian Defence Ministry.

Ministry sources here, who confirmed this development, said the Indian Air Force was very upset over the bid. The service’s technical team had valued the 12 fully equipped planes and support at $565 million and submitted its evaluation to the Defence Ministry, the final authority in arms negotiations.

Qatar had offered the aircraft to India for $750 million.

The Qatari Mirage 2000-5s offered to India are equipped with multitargeting advanced radar, an integrated electronic warfare suite and a glass cockpit.

A diplomat at the Qatari Embassy here said the Indian offer for the 12 aircraft was so low that it showed New Delhi is not serious about buying the fighter planes, which now will be sold to another country.

Qatar put the aircraft up for sale in 2002. The Indian Air Force’s technical team visited Qatar to inspect the aircraft in March 2003, and teams from Qatar and India worked out a price for the used aircraft in April 2004.

Air Force sources said they are surprised that the Defence Ministry submitted such a low bid and scuttled the deal, saying the aircraft are like new and have 85 percent of their service life left.

Service sources said the Air Force estimated the 12 planes’ base cost at $463.5 million, less 20 percent due to the 15 percent service life consumed. That put the base price at $371 million. The cost of equipment was put at $74 million, 96 Mica missiles at $67 million, Magic missiles at $5 million, and the cost of support equipment for the missiles at $48 million — a total of $565 million.

A Defence Ministry official said the final bid offered to Qatar was based on depreciation.

However, Air Force sources said the estimated cost of the Qatari aircraft included depreciation, reduction due to obsolescence of technology and the life of the missiles.

“The Defence Ministry bureaucrats calculated the depreciation like they do on automobiles, and not aircraft,” said one service source.

The Air Force is particularly worried that the Qatari aircraft will end up in Pakistan.

Besides Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Taiwan also have shown interest in buying the the Mirage 2000-5 aircraft.

Le deal serait complètement hors de question.

Je vais vraiment finir par croire que l'Inde l'a fait rien que pour empêcher un client potable d'arrivers à ses fins.

Bref, le Quatar recherche de nouveaux clients dont Taiwan (un peu sulfureux, mais quand on produit du pétrole, la Chine n'a pas vraiment son mot à dire) ou les EAU.

Autre possibilité que les islamistes locaux apprécierait, un "don" au Pakistan (on n'en par le pas dans l'article).

L'Inde est en train de nous couilloner en beaute. Dassault est mal barre pour vendre ses 126 2000-5 avec le gouvernement Indien actuel qui a ses yeux rives sur les US. Le Scorpene va probablement echapper a la debacle car les US n'ont pas de produit sur ce creneau.

Ce qui me ferait vraiment marrer c'est que ces 2000-5 finissent au Pakistan ! Ca rendrait l'IAF furieuse contre la stupidite de leurs politiciens.

[Julien]

D'ailleurs je ne suis pas seul a penser cela apparemment... --------------------------------------- 'IAF under US pressure in aircraft deal with Qatar? DH News Service New Delhi/Bangalore: The hand of powerful US armament lobby is suspected behind IAF?s quoting wholly unacceptable price for the Qatar?s aircraft The quoting of low price by the Indian Air Force (IAF) for the purchase of 12 secondhand Mirage 2000-5 fighters from Qatar was reportedly done under ?subtle pressure? from the US that is pressuring India to buy its F 16/F18 multi- role combat aircraft (MRCA). Armament industry sources said the IAF?s last month offer of around $ 375 million to the Qatari authorities for 12 Mirage 2000-5 aircraft clearly signified that India was not ?serious? about acquiring the fighters. The IAF?s offer is around half of the $ 750 million that Qatar is quoting for the Mirage fighters it had acquired from France?s Dassault eight years ago. ?Through its offer India appears to be merely going through the formality of making a bid for the fighters, knowing fully well that it would not be acceptable to the Qatari?s,? an overseas source involved in the negotiations said. The US pressure could be the reason behind it, the source added. Mirage 2000-5 is one of the four aircraft alongside the USA?s F 16 and F 18 competing for the IAF?s multi-million dollar proposal to acquire 126 fighters. The other two competitors are Russia?s MiG 29 M and Sweden?s Saab-Grippen MRCA. The decision to acquire the 12 Mirage 2000-5?s from Qatar was taken earlier this year by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS ) chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. The CCS was endorsing the commitment by the previous NDA administration two years ago to purchase the used Mirage 2000-5?s in order to prevent Qatar from selling them to Pakistan. This was when the IAF was in advanced negotiations exclusively with Dassault for 126 Mirage 2000-5 fighters to strengthen its strategic deterrence capability. During his visit to Qatar in January 2003, former deputy prime minister L K Advani had reportedly told the Sheikhdom that India would curtail an important gas deal if the jets were sold to Pakistan and not to the IAF. Qatar?s Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani visited Delhi in April 2005 and held a series of meetings with senior Indian officials including Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee indicating that the Mirage 2000-5 was a ?done deal? barring formalities. Dassault was also to be part of the agreement with the IAF, involved in refurbishing the fighters before the aircraft joined service sometime later this year. In June, an IAF delegation led by S K Sharma, joint secretary (acquisitions) and a two-star IAF officer visited Qatar and proposed paying $ 375 million for the fighter jets, an amount ?wholly unacceptable? to the Emirate, a foreign armament source said. ?The IAF?s inexplicably low offer is bound to be turned down,? an armament industry source said, hinting that the omnipotent US armament lobby was at work. Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee, he said, was already under attack by the Communist parties for ?giving in? to the US lobby in signing the Defence Framework Agreement. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is going to the US later this week during which the purchase of the American fighters would feature prominently amongst other military matters, a senior Defence Ministry source said. Defence analysts said Washington?s feud with France over the latter?s opposition to the Iraq war had recently been manifesting itself in armament sales. The US had successfully ?spiked? France?s deals for fighters with Poland and South Korea recently, they said.

[glitter]

Que le gouvernement Indien fasse un tel retour en arrière, j'aurais du mal à le croire. C'est un pays avec de grandes ambitions, ce qui cadre mal avec les alliés traditionnelles des USA. D'un autre coté, les pays arabes qui soutenaient la vente au Pakistan vont peut être se bouger. Difficile à dire.

[Julien]

En tout cas, il est bien dommage que l'Ada ne fasse pas une offre sur ces 2000-5 quasi-neufs :cry:

[Kovy]

Peut être parceque ça couterait moins cher de retrofiter 12 de nos mirage 2000 C/D ? 8)

[CVN220]

Et si "on poussait" l' Inde a opté pour la production sous licence du Rafale au lieu du Mirage 2000 ?????. Ok, ce n' est pas le même budget ,ni le même niveau technologique aussi !!!!!.

[Philippe Top-Force]

Il y a quelque chose qui m'échappe :? je croyais que l'Inde cherchait à acquérir 126 avions de combat mais à la condition de les produire sous licence ,cet état de fait est en tractation avec Dassault ,ce qui inclut transfert de technologies. Je ne pense pas que se sera acquis pour les USA et leur F16/F18 ? Ou alors ,j'ai manqué un épisode. :oops: Sachant que les Indiens ne sont pas attifs ni percutants dans les achats d'armes ,il faut donc s'armer de patience. Derniers détails ,les USA sont à l'opposé très actifs sur le lobbying.

[Fenrir]

je croyais justement que le congrés ou le sénat avait autorisé les entreprises produisant les F16/F18 à effectuer un transfert de technologie important pour pouvoir damer le pion à Dassault.

[Julien]

Peut être parceque ça couterait moins cher de retrofiter 12 de nos mirage 2000 C/D ? 8)

Ben justement j'en suis pas sûr !

[Julien]

L'Inde est probablement alléchée par le F-18E qui est quand même un avion un classe au dessus qu'un Mig29 ou qu'un 2000-5 au niveau allonge et capacité d'emport. Evidemment, ils déchanteront quand les US leur imposeront un embargo pour un oui ou pour un non.

[seb24]

L'Inde est probablement alléchée par le F-18E qui est quand même un avion un classe au dessus qu'un Mig29 ou qu'un 2000-5 au niveau allonge et capacité d'emport. Evidemment, ils déchanteront quand les US leur imposeront un embargo pour un oui ou pour un non.

Oui mais dans ce cas le F-18 E/F et plutot dans la même categorie que le Rafale (niveau prix,performances). Donc c'est un peu normal de préférer un F-18 EF a un 2000-5.