[Rafale] *archive*

[debonneguerre]

Vu qu'aujourd'hui, les diverses agences parlent de première vente au MO et une exclusion en Inde, voir le topic approprié: Dassault pleure, et déçu et il rit.

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-economie/2009-04-16/le-rafale-exclu-d-un-appel-d-offres-de-12-milliards-de-dollars/916/0/335624

L'Inde a exclu jeudi l'avion Rafale de Dassault Aviation d'un appel d'offres de 12 milliards de dollars pour acheter 126 chasseurs. "Le Rafale est hors course pour le processus d'appel d'offres, parce que, lors des évaluations techniques, la société n'a pas rempli tous les critères requis", a annoncé un responsable du ministère indien de la Défense, s'exprimant sous le couvert de l'anonymat. "Il y a beaucoup de raisons derrière ce rejet, mais le coût relativement élevé de l'avion constitue l'une de ces raisons", a-t-il expliqué.

.

A prendre avec des pincettes évidemment, certains bien mieux compétents que moi, ont parlé de signature radar je crois et d'aérodynamisme dégradé.

[DEFA550]

Alors qu'ils disent que notre avion ne remplit pas les conditions techniques ?

Ce n'est pas (forcément) ce qui a été dit/écrit. Il pourrait tout aussi bien s'agir du non respect de clauses techniques du contrat d'appel d'offre. Ce qui, il faut bien le reconnaître, est totalement différent...

[Bruno]

Ce n'est pas (forcément) ce qui a été dit/écrit. Il pourrait tout aussi bien s'agir du non respect de clauses techniques du contrat d'appel d'offre. Ce qui, il faut bien le reconnaître, est totalement différent...

Peut-être que les indiens exigeaient dans le contrat une licence pour produire sur place le tout nouveau radar AESA que Thalès développe sur le Rafale ?

(Dans ce cas bonne nouvelle d'avoir été exclu ...)

[Rafale56]

Une analyse intéressante : http://livefist.blogspot.com/

[debonneguerre]

A lire en effet, le type maitrise son dossier avec un point de vue qui n'est pas hexagonal.

L'auteur semble pointer un mal bien francais, les politiques ne seraint pas encore à la hauteur et celà retombe sur les industriels et l'avion, on rejoue le film marocain, frustrant, ca fait mal à l'arrière train  =(  =(

[Kovy]

A lire en effet, le type maitrise son dossier avec un point de vue qui n'est pas hexagonal.

"by Edouard Billet

in Paris"

(Billet is a Paris-based freelance aviation industry watcher and journalist. He was formerly with the Rafale testing programme at Dassault Aviation, and has tracked the evolution of the French aircraft industry for over a decade. This column is exclusive to LiveFist)

Pas hexagonal le point de vue ?  :lol:

[Philippe Top-Force]

Alors qu'ils disent que notre avion ne remplit pas les conditions techniques ?

:lol:  O0 Never Say Anything !

[vincicom]

C'est un avion en dotation dans un escadron, c'est a dire aligne sur une base aerienne et pret a voler a condition d'avoir assez de pilotes et de pieces de rechange. En realite, la disponibilite des avions en ligne n'est souvent que de 50-60%, a cause des flux tendus de pieces de rechange en temps de paix. (Faut rogner partout pour sauver des sous)

http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2007/11/un-avion-de-cha.html

En plus des avions en ligne, il y a aussi 10-15% du parc d'avions qui n'est pas en dotation en escadron: soit stoke pour compenser les pertes eventuelles sur 30-40 ans d'operations, soit retire pour plusieurs mois pour des operations de grande maintenance, des refontes etc.

Ok, merci !

[debonneguerre]

"by Edouard Billet

in Paris"

(Billet is a Paris-based freelance aviation industry watcher and journalist. He was formerly with the Rafale testing programme at Dassault Aviation, and has tracked the evolution of the French aircraft industry for over a decade. This column is exclusive to LiveFist)

Pas hexagonal le point de vue ?  :lol:

Oups... :-X

[xav]

http://www.stratpost.com/rafale-ejection-from-mmrca-race-confirmed

“One issue was about power. The evaluating team was not impressed with the Thrust/Weight ratio,” one source told StratPost.

In the case of Rafale, StratPost was informed the ratio was found to be unsatisfactory.

The Rafale was also said to have unspecified problems with its payload deployment system itself.

Other sources told StratPost, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was not impressed with the serviceability of the aircraft. At Exercise Red Flag in the United States last year, in which both the IAF as well as the French Air Force Rafales participated, the Rafales were observed to suffer considerable down time, which, according to some reports, was due to the lack of available spares.

??? De quoi il s'agit?

bref

et du meme article:

The Thrust/Weight ratio decide the maneuverability of the aircraft. The Rafale is reputed to have a Thrust/Weight ratio of 1.13. Other contenders like the Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Saab’s Gripen are reputed to have lower ratios of 1.095 and 0.94 respectively, while Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is said to have a ratio of 0.93. The Russian MiG-35 is said to have a ratio of 1.1 and the Eurofighter Typhoon 1.18.

Donc c'etait le 2eme meilleur Thrust/Weight ratio... Pas trés cohérent donc de dire "One issue was about power"

[pascal]

Il y a plusieurs volets dans le dossier.

Un volet technique, un volet industriel, un volet financier et un volet diplomatique ...

Chacun de ces aspects peut faire foirer le dossier, reste à savoir aussi ce que les uns et les autres sont prêts à concéder au client pour vendre leur produit ...

@Sponge

Le Grippen estampillé BAé est (peut être) moins gênant en terme d'influence pour les américains que ne l'est le Rafale

[P4]

De quoi il s'agit?

Des pseudo observations faitent par les Indiens à Red Flag, du meme gout que celles d'un résponsable de l'USAF dans une vidéo.

Des bobards.  :lol:

[SpongeBob]

Le Grippen estampillé BAé est (peut être) moins gênant en terme d'influence pour les américains que ne l'est le Rafale

Je suis pas convaincu.

Le Gripen est certes un peu américain et britannique mais comme concrétisation d'un rapporochement avec les EU, acheter un avions suédois est un peu juste logiquement parlant.

[TMor]

http://www.stratpost.com/rafale-ejection-from-mmrca-race-confirmed

??? De quoi il s'agit?

T'inquiète... Moi aussi j'ai mes sources, j'ai mon blog, et je vais en faire du journalisme.

En l'occurrence, ils ont viré le Rafale parce que c'était carrément de la concurrence déloyale, et qu'ils allaient se faire détester par russes, suédois, américains et européens (hors France). Maintenant, tout est plus fairplay.

Plus sérieusement, cet article révèle une chose : le bashing en règle s'amorce. Le spin redémarre.

OUI, le Rafale est une m...... !

OUI, les français ont été arrogants !

[xav]

En fait je demandai surtout pour le

"The Rafale was also said to have unspecified problems with its payload deployment system itself." car on ma demandé sur MP.net de quoi il pouvait s'agir... y compris par MP ou on me demande si c'etait les AASM qui finalement n'étaient pas "reliable"  O0

Bref je comprend bien ce que vous voulez dire.

Maintenant nous on peut chopper notre pop corn et soda, et profiter du spectacle de cette saga...

Qui va "basher" qui maintenant?

Les russes vont basher les ricains qui eux meme vont basher le gripen?

[P4]

Les AASM sont tellement "unreliable" que le Grippen va etre équipé de la version 125kg  avant le Rafale.

Petit a petit se met en place un pseudo duel Rafale/Grippen qui n'a pour seul but que de mettre le bokson dans l'alliance NeuroN.

[Kovy]

Faut pas chercher du coté des performances, vu que le rafale n'a pas été évalué par le indiens.

Tu ne discalifies pas un une offre sur des critères techniques en te basant sur des impressions ou des rumeurs. Au pire tu en prends note et tu les vérifies par toi même pendant une évaluation sur le terrain (comme l'on fait les Suisses).

La question n'est pas de savoir pourquoi le rafale à été éliminé, mais pourquoi il a été éliminé avant son évaluation et avant tous les autres. On peut raisonnablement penser que ça n'a rien à voir avec l'avion lui même.

[g4lly]

Faut pas chercher du coté des performances, vu que le rafale n'a pas été évalué par le indiens.

Tu ne discalifies pas un une offre sur des critères techniques en te basant sur des impressions ou des rumeurs. Au pire tu en prends note et tu les vérifies par toi même pendant une évaluation sur le terrain (comme l'on fait les Suisses).

La question n'est pas de savoir pourquoi le rafale à été éliminé, mais pourquoi il a été éliminé avant son évaluation et avant tous les autres. On peut raisonnablement penser que ça n'a rien à voir avec l'avion lui même.

Pour le moment la raison invoqué n'est pas l'avion lui meme ...

"... la société (Dassault Aviation) n'a pas rempli tous les critères requis."

[pascal]

Dassault à la différence de Saab et des américains a déjà vendu des avions en Inde et les gens de Saint Cloud n'ont peut être pas envie de se faire enfler ou de se faire ballader pendant des années

[xav]

Rafale shot down for real or victim of the Gripen syndrome?

by Edouard Billet

in Paris

If we believe in recent press reports (Dow Jones, Reuters, etc.), Dassault would be about to make its Rafale fighter remain a true “French exception”. The news is still not confirmed but an anonymous MoD official is said to have announced to the media that the French combat aircraft has been rejected from the IAF MMRCA contest.

What happened? Is it really true? Is the Rafale a victim of the Gripen syndrome? Remember January when rumors popped up suggesting that Saab's JAS-39 Gripen might be left out of the field trials following the IAF's Technical Evaluation Committee report.

The news (if confirmed) sounds very. The aircraft, among the six contenders, is maybe one of the most pertinent for the IAF in terms of technical and operational aspects given the wide range of capabilities but let's try to put some distance between us and the aircraft first.

I think it is useless here to make yet another technical description of the aircraft itself. Every reader of this blog knows now the different features of each contender and their strengths/weaknesses. But maybe we should do the right assessment, instead. This recent announcement (if true) was released just after Air Chief Marshal FH Major, the Chief of Air Staff, said the first technical evaluation made by the militaries is over. Field trials have not begun yet and will probably be launched just after the elections in mid-May, and Dassault’s offer has already been rejected. In other words, it looks like the offer has been rejected instead of the Rafale.

But what really happened? The debate seems now to have jumped from the technical/technological sphere into the commercial/strategic sphere. The Rafale is a really good plane and shows its potential almost each day in Afghanistan or simply during its test campaigns in the hands of the French flight test center (CEV) teams. Its potential and its present capabilities are really great, no doubt about that. But let’s question ourselves about the way the Indian commercial campaign has been led by its maker and the French authorities. The problem might be here.

Some Indian observers believe that Dassault does not really believe the fact that the RfP process will survive the coming elections. Except this hypothesis, nothing can really explain the lack of communication from the French side that many observers have highlighted compared to the commercial show orchestrated by Boeing, Lockheed Martin (even the flames on the runway… the Americans always bring some special FX with them!) or even EADS.

Many things are not clear at all because of a lack of official communications from the MoD. But would it be reasonable to put into perspective the MMRCA deal and the future contract to upgrade the IAF’s Mirage 2000? Did Indian authorities make Dassault understand that Mirage + Rafale is an impossible equation given their will to reinforce their ties with the US? Because if we remember the words that Indian officials said few months ago that clearly signified “We won't sign any other strategic partnership apart from those with the US and Russia” Therefore, is the die cast?

Another element that should be taken into account in the ‘unconfirmed’ statement made by the anonymous MoD official is the price of Dassault’s offer. This argument seems to be recurrent concerning French offers in general, and was notably heard concerning the Mirage 2000 upgrade program. If some observers and militaries sometimes reproach French programs to be expensive, the most part of them also admit in the same time that French products have very good records in terms of serviceability, and are not linked to any constraining end-use monitoring agreements. Maybe quality and sovereignty have a cost. That's a thought.

Let’s try to stay careful for now since the “rejection” has not been formalized yet. Dassault itself, according to one of its spokespersons, still has not been informed of anything by the Indian government.

Even if we try to get out of technical discussions, many readers here would probably agree with that: it is quite frustrating to totally ignore technological aspects to only focus on commercial reflections. Because, indeed, one question remains. What makes possible the fact that the Rafale is excluded for technical reasons and not the Gripen, for instance? Neither the Gripen IN/NG nor the MiG-35 are operational and field trials expected to start next month, which could become a strange mix of prototypes and operational aircrafts test flights. The Rafale in its F3 standard is today a very competitive aircraft. Neither the cheapest nor the most expensive solution, its abilities have a strong point: they are proven (Red Flag, Afghanistan) and, a minima, at the same level of the five other contenders.

What can we have against it? Maybe its good “omnirole” nature. So good that it is not the “best” in a particular mission, except maybe deep penetration missions in air-to-ground attack mode given its small EM/IR signature and its important survivability with its SPECTRA self-protection system.

What is censurable in its configuration? Mainly two points:

1) Its thrust -- an engine able to deliver 90kN would have been better, notably for high-altitude take-off and landings, but technically the solution already exists with the M88 ECO. Even if this engine is not yet in production, an agreement seems to be possible (and is thought) between the DRDO (and more specifically the GTRE) and Snecma as a possible way to boost the Kaveri program (but here again the IAF expressed its reluctance due to the level of proposed ToTs).

2) Its radar: an AESA is said to be required in the IAF's ASQR. Thales has been finalizing the development of its new RBE2 AESA for months, which is now ready for low rate production. This system has been flight tested many times in France and was recently evaluated by Swiss pilots in the frame of Switzerland AF own contest to replace its old F-5. According to local sources, pilots are really enthusiastic and enjoyed its performances (range, precision) in various tactical environments (mountains, jammed areas, etc.). Those sources also said most pilots who have flown the Rafale and the other proposed aircrafts (i.e. Gripen and EF) expressed their preference for the French fighter. Furthermore, ToTs proposed to India by Thales for the RBE2 AESA seemed to be very interesting.

So where is the logic? Probably Dassault's offer would have been rejected in the last part of the MMRCA evaluation process at the political/economical level, given the strategic interest to opt for an American solution. But such a rejection now is quite hardly understandable. So wait and see, for two reasons: 1) to see if the announcement is true and 2) to gain more distance with all these parameters.

If ever the announcement is validated by Indian officials, maybe French authorities will have to take in turn some distance with their way to support the French industry abroad. Here again, let's do a flashback two months ago during Aero India 09 and let's remember the words of Nicolas Sarkozy’s adisor on International Affairs Jean-David Levitte. According to him the Rafale was under damageable political pressure in India. He said he asked the Indian government to consider the Rafale the same way it does with the five other contenders. These words, carefully listened by any polemist, would have been read as: "If you do not select the Rafale that means you are corrupt".

So maybe we should imagine that the French government didn't really help Dassault's efforts. Such a hypothesis could be read in the light of the recent Rafale defeat in Morocco, partially caused by a lack of coordination of the French Administration with Dassault's commercial stance.

But all these are only suppositions and ideas to deepen, of course the discourse. Let's wait, savoring a good French red wine. I'm sure you know that wine possesses neuroleptic effects, i.e. it blunts the peak of emotions and reduces anxiety and stress, providing a mild euphoria and some moral appeasement?

(Billet is a Paris-based freelance aviation industry watcher and journalist. He was formerly with the Rafale testing programme at Dassault Aviation, and has tracked the evolution of the French aircraft industry for over a decade. This column is exclusive to LiveFist)

[TMor]

En attendant, à part un gros buzz, toujours rien d'officiel, non ?

[SPARTAN]

L'aesa du rafale peut il evoluer d'ici sa mise en service grace aux evaluations pour l'exportaions et les essais? D'autre part, une fois la "bosse" budgetaire passée, une acceleration des cadences de production (et de livraison) peut elle etre possible?

[Philippe Top-Force]

T'inquiète... Moi aussi j'ai mes sources, j'ai mon blog, et je vais en faire du journalisme.

En l'occurrence, ils ont viré le Rafale parce que c'était carrément de la concurrence déloyale, et qu'ils allaient se faire détester par russes, suédois, américains et européens (hors France). Maintenant, tout est plus fairplay.

Plus sérieusement, cet article révèle une chose : le bashing en règle s'amorce. Le spin redémarre.

OUI, le Rafale est une m...... !

OUI, les français ont été arrogants !

C'est fou, mais j'ai d'autres sources qui ne disent pas cela, mais bon c'est ainsi.  :lol:

[Hilariovespasio]

combat de sources!!!!

[Darkjmfr]

I don't care, mine is bigger anyways !