Armée de l'air Polonaise

[Boule75]

Le 20/10/2016 à 16:29, LunchTime a dit :

Le premier  M-346 Master AJT en Novembre en Pologne.

Tout mignon cet avion !

Le 26/10/2016 à 10:45, LunchTime a dit :

Poland to Sign the JASSM-ER Procurement Contract by the End of This Year? Polish Ministry of Defence Officially Confirms the Fact that Negotiation is in Progress

Until the end of 2016, the Polish Ministry of Defence may sign an agreement, the purpose of which would be to procure the JASSM-ER cruise missiles, with a range of 900 kilometres.

L'augmentation de portée ne pose-t-elle pas problème au regard d'un traité ? Je pense à celui qui a conduit à la limitation de la portée des Black Shaeen par rapport à celle des versions anglaises en française du même missile.

Réponse aux russes / provocation des russes... On progresse, c'est sûr.

[DEFA550]

il y a 40 minutes, Boule75 a dit :

L'augmentation de portée ne pose-t-elle pas problème au regard d'un traité ? Je pense à celui qui a conduit à la limitation de la portée des Black Shaeen par rapport à celle des versions anglaises en française du même missile.

Le RCTM (régime de contrôle de la technologie des missiles) classe le JASSM-ER en catégorie 2, comme le SCALP/Black Shaheen/Storm Shadow étant donné que la charge militaire n'excède pas 500 kg. Les conditions d'exportation sont moins contraignantes que pour les armes de la catégorie 1, en supposant qu'on puisse parler de contraintes puisqu'il n'y en a aucune obligeant à respecter ce RCTM.

"le RCTM n’est pas un traité et n’a pas force de loi sur ses membres. La seule activité sujette à une interdiction absolue, à laquelle souscrivent volontairement les 34 pays membres, est l’exportation d’installations de production des articles de catégorie I de la Liste du RCTM."

[LunchTime]

Le 29.10.2016 à 13:01, Boule75 a dit :

Tout mignon cet avion !

Aujourd'hui, deux avions Master sont arrivés en Pologne.

 

[LunchTime]

UH-1Y Venom comme remplacement des Mi-8/17/14?

C'est une blague?

Citation

Polish MoD: Bell Participates in the Helicopter Tender

Antoni Macierewicz, Polish Minister of Defence, announced that the Polish MoD is willing to sign a relevant contract related to procurement of the Wisła air/missile defence systems by the end of this year. The official assured that the Army’s budget is going to be used in full, during the current fiscal year. As it was disclosed by Macierewicz, when it comes to the restartedhelicopter procurement procedure, the companies which submitted their proposals include PZL Świdnik, PZL Mielec, Airbus Helicopters and Bell Helicopter company as well.

Antoni Macierewicz, Polish Minister of Defence, announced, during a conference summarizing one year of his work at the post of the Head of the MoD, that the Ministry is willing to sign the contract related to procurement of the Wisła air/missile defence systems by the end of this year. Back in September, the Americans have received the Letter of Request pertaining to acquisition of eight Patriot batteries, along with the IBCS air defence management module, within the framework of the Wisła programme. Within the tender, an offer submitted by MEADS is also taken into consideration, a relevant request to obtain more details within that scope has also been sent to the said manufacturer.

According to the head of the Ministry of Defence, the most important orders have also been placed with the Polish facilities. The new helicopter procurement procedure involves, besides PZL Świdnik and PZL Mielec, also the Airbus Helicopters and Bell companies. Following the offset negotiation regarding the acquisition of 50 Caracal helicopters selected by the former leadership of the Polish Ministry of Defence ending up in a fiasco, the current MoD leadership is willing to acquire a certain number of helicopters within the framework of so called urgent operational requirement, for the special forces first, with the Navy to follow.

As Macierewicz stated, the aforesaid tender is primarily addressed to the Polish facilities from Mielec and Świdnik, however, the remaining two potential contractors, namely Airbus Helicopters and Bell companies, are said to have a chance to take part in the procedure on equal terms. Nonetheless, the Polish official expressed his hope to acquire the rotorcraft from the facilities based within the territory of Poland.

Bell Helicopters offers the UH-1Y Venom helicopter, as an initial proposal, in case of which 85% of the components are shared with the AH-1Z Viper gunship, which is to be proposed by the US-based manufacturer within the Kruk attack helicopter programme.

http://www.defence24.com/491090,polish-mod-bell-participates-in-the-helicopter-tender

 

Modifié le 16 novembre 2016 par LunchTime

[Ciders]

Non. Curieusement, ça paraît presque logique : S-70i et UH-1Y pour le transport, AH-1Z pour les missions d'attaque, PZL pour les missions de liaison et la recherche et sauvetage. On peut aussi envisager une offre de Boeing pour des AH-64.

[LunchTime]

Il y a 5 heures, Ciders a dit :

Non. Curieusement, ça paraît presque logique : S-70i et UH-1Y pour le transport, AH-1Z pour les missions d'attaque, PZL pour les missions de liaison et la recherche et sauvetage. On peut aussi envisager une offre de Boeing pour des AH-64.

Mais, nous ne recherchons pas des hélicoptères de transport. L'armée veut obtenir quelque chose pour la Marine et FS, donc SeaHawki et PaveHawk. Il faut demander au Congrès et attendre longtemps pour la livraison. Parce que en Pologne pour BlackHowk on n’est fait que ca ...  

PZL W-3 Sokół avec sa faible motorization n'etai jamais un bon hélicoptère militaire. Particulièrement version marin. L'armée ne veut plus de Sokół modernisée au standard Głuszec (CSAR économique). PZL Świdnik/ Leonardo propose AW149 i AW101 comme hélicoptères marines.

AH-64 est trop cher. Il n'y a aucune chance pour les 32 hélicoptères d'attaque, et avec Viper c’est possible. Surtout que Bell propose aussi AH-1Z en République Tchèque, Roumanie et Hongrie.

UH-1Y peut remplacer la Mi-2 ou W-3 Sokół (apres 2026), main no Mi-8/17.

Avec hélicoptère plus petite que Mi-8 L'armée devrait changer la structure des troupes aéromobiles.

Air Cavalry en Irak (2005/6):

 

[Bechar06]

Il y a 12 heures, LunchTime a dit :

avec Viper c’est possible. Surtout que Bell propose aussi AH-1Z en République Tchèque, Roumanie et Hongrie.

Aurait on une idée du différentiel de prix: vis à vis de l' Apache et surtout du Tigre ?   qui permette de proposer ce Viper à des pays moins riches ? 

[Drakene]

Il y a 22 heures, LunchTime a dit :

UH-1Y Venom comme remplacement des Mi-8/17/14?

C'est une blague?

http://www.defence24.com/491090,polish-mod-bell-participates-in-the-helicopter-tender

 

 

Ils remplacent les mi-8 par un hélicoptère plus petit et de conception plus ancienne...

L'armée de terre devrait se méfier, ils vont remplacer leur Tatra Kolos par des transit 

[LunchTime]

Il y a 7 heures, Bechar06 a dit :

Aurait on une idée du différentiel de prix: vis à vis de l' Apache et surtout du Tigre ?   qui permette de proposer ce Viper à des pays moins riches ? 

L'achat de la nouvel hélicoptère d'attaque sera réaliser après 2019, donc il n'y a pas encore une proposition officielle de producteurs. Mais Inspectorat d'armement est apres le “dialogue technique” et  il peut comparer les prix.

Mais c’est pas seulement le prix unitaire de hélicoptère. Il y a aussi: le coût et l'autonomie de maintenir, production et l'intégration d'armements en Pologne, le transfert de technologie nécessaires dans d'autres programmes.

Prix d’un Caracal pour Pologne était plus grande que pour Koweït. Mais l'un des négociateurs (de l'armée) était prêt à ajouter 0,7-1 mld zloty additionnel pour le transfert de technologie propose.

 

[prof.566]

35 minutes ago, LunchTime said:

L'achat de la nouvel hélicoptère d'attaque sera réaliser après 2019, donc il n'y a pas encore une proposition officielle de producteurs. Mais Inspectorat d'armement est apres le “dialogue technique” et  il peut comparer les prix.

Mais c’est pas seulement le prix unitaire de hélicoptère. Il y a aussi: le coût et l'autonomie de maintenir, production et l'intégration d'armements en Pologne, le transfert de technologie nécessaires dans d'autres programmes.

Prix d’un Caracal pour Pologne était plus grande que pour Koweït. Mais l'un des négociateurs (de l'armée) était prêt à ajouter 0,7-1 mld zloty additionnel pour le transfert de technologie propose.

 

Merci de faire l'effort de communiquer en Francais luchtime!

[g4lly]

47 minutes ago, prof.566 said:

Merci de faire l'effort de communiquer en Francais luchtime!

LUNCHTIME ... il est polonais et fait déjà probablement un bel effort pour que ce soit intelligible.

[Skw]

il y a une heure, g4lly a dit :

LUNCHTIME ... il est polonais et fait déjà probablement un bel effort pour que ce soit intelligible.

Il est vrai que le point d'exclamation peut laisser imaginer une injonction, mais je crois que Prof remerciait justement Lunchtime pour ses efforts linguistiques  En tout cas, c'est vraiment bien d'avoir des membres comme lui sur le forum pour alimenter de telles sections. Sans Lunchtime, il y a probablement pas mal d'informations et de ressentis locaux que l'on aurait raté sur la Pologne.

[Teenytoon]

Je pense que Prof remerciait réellement lunchtime, je crois pas que c'était ironique. 

Est il envisageable que le PiS est cassé les 60 caracals avec pertes et fracas pour "faire le beau" auprès de son électorat et qu'il repasse commande ultérieurement en plusieurs tranches chez Airbus ? 

Les indiens ont bien fait ca pour le Rafale en quelque sorte. Arrêter le MMRCA à grand renfort de publicité pour finir par signer 36 Rafale dans une annexe de bureau prévu pour la photocopieuse 

[prof.566]

54 minutes ago, Skw said:

Il est vrai que le point d'exclamation peut laisser imaginer une injonction, mais je crois que Prof remerciait justement Lunchtime pour ses efforts linguistiques  En tout cas, c'est vraiment bien d'avoir des membres comme lui sur le forum pour alimenter de telles sections. Sans Lunchtime, il y a probablement pas mal d'informations et de ressentis locaux que l'on aurait raté sur la Pologne.

Aucune ironie

 

[LunchTime]

Le 17.11.2016 à 18:53, Teenytoon a dit :

Est il envisageable que le PiS est cassé les 60 caracals avec pertes et fracas pour "faire le beau" auprès de son électorat et qu'il repasse commande ultérieurement en plusieurs tranches chez Airbus ? 

Ce sont des politiciens qui priaient pour la pluie au parlement. Je ne m'attends pas à la rationalité.

Maintenant, il faut 8 hélicoptères pour FS et 6 SAR. Livraison en 2017. Caracal est un candidat solide pour la Marine.

BH indiqué par le MoD est pas sûr. Forces Spéciales veulent un hélicoptère avec la possibilité d’embarqué à bord au moins 16 soldats.

http://biznes.gazetaprawna.pl/artykuly/995327,caracale-francja-wojsko-baltyk.html

[Teenytoon]

Puisse tu avoir raison 

[LunchTime]

US Department a approuvé les 70 JASSM-ER Missiles pour les F-16 polonais.

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/poland-jassm-er-support

Citation

70 JASSM-ER Missiles for the Polish F-16 Fighters. US State Department Issues A Consent

US Department of State approved the transaction, the goal ofwhich is to make it possible for Poland to acquire the JASSM-ER cruise missiles. The ER version has a range which exceeds 900kilometres. USD 200 million has been defined as the maximum amount of the contract.

According to the information released by the DCSA agency, the potential agreement would cover acquisition of 70 AGM-158B JASSM-ER missiles, along with systems that would make it possible to conduct a relevant test-flight programme, including launches and carrying of such ordnance by the Polish F-16 fighter aircraft. Poland would also be bound to receive simulators of the AGM-158B weapon. The potential contract is also expected to cover the integration procedure, including the process of integrating the new weapon with the Polish F-16 jets, provision of technical support, support within the scope of logistics and testing equipment.

The maximum estimated value of the deal has been defined as USD 200 million, whereas earlier claims suggested that Poland has been interested in procuring 40 JASSM missiles in the extended range variant. One should remember that the FMS document indicates the maximum amounts and quantity of armament approved.

The US authorities stress the fact that selling the missiles could be interpreted as a contribution to the implementation of the foreign policy goals, and would be an element which bolsters the US security, through provision of support for the NATO ally. The release suggests that Poland is still seen an important player, when it comes to the political stability and economic development in the central part of Europe.

The information published also indicates that JASSM-ER missiles will enhance the Poland’s ability to act against potential threats posed by present and future ground based and airborne weaponry. Here, the US officials are probably referring to the long range missiles, which are being gradually deployed within the Kaliningrad Oblast area.

DSCA also notes that modernization will also expand the Polish air-to-ground strike capabilities, enabling the Air Force to be an effective deterrent against the “regional threats”, which, as a consequence, would also lead to expansion of the Polish defensive capabilities.

Lockheed Martin company is to be the main contractor, within the JASSM-ER procurement procedure. Formal notification issued by DSCA is not tantamount to conclusion of the contract, as the transaction still needs to be approved by the Congress, nonetheless, considering the current circumstances, this seems to be very likely to happen.

Back in 2014, Poland ordered 40 AGM-158A missiles, along with a modernization package for the F-16C/D aircraft. The above-described step is a natural follow-up process, since the AGM-158B JASSM-ER missiles have a range of more than 900 kilometres, as compared to the 370 kilometres for the AGM-158A variant. Tomasz Siemoniak, former Minister of Defence, was the first person to express the Warsaw’s interest in acquiring the Extended Range variant of the weapon.

JASSM missile is being guided with a combined INS/GPS guidance system coupled with a FLIR guidance solution which takes over the task of the INS/GPS suite during the terminal phase of flight. The purpose of the said missiles is to precisely strike critical targets, including fortified objects or elements of the air defence system used by the potential enemy.

At the moment, JASSM-ER missiles have only been integrated with the USAF B-1B bombers, however, in the US Air Force, the weapon is to be carried by B-52H bombers, F-15E Strike Eagles and F-16 Fighting Falcons too. Considering the fact that integration of the missile with the latter platforms is not a priority in the US, Poland may become the first user of the JASSM-ER missile launched from the F-16, and almost certainly, Warsaw is going to be the first foreign buyer to acquire the AGM-158B JASSM-ER weapon. AGM-158A missiles have so far been sold also for Finland and Australia, utilizing F/A-18A/B and F/A-18C/D Hornet jets.

Approved JASSM-ER procurement may be interpreted as a proof of the fact that the US authorities trust the Warsaw government. Acquisition of 70 missiles would increase the Polish Air Force’s deterrence capabilities, and Poland’s NATO credibility. More armament procurement for the F-16 jets is expected too, including the anti-radiation missiles.

On the other hand one should remember that deterrence capabilities should be created in a manner which is comprehensive, in connection with a proper C4IS, reconnaissance and ground-launched and surface to air missiles, including a relevant missile defence system.

http://www.defence24.com/500571,70-jassm-er-missiles-for-the-polish-f-16-fighters-us-state-department-issues-a-consent

 

[LunchTime]

L'Armée de l'Air polonaise ajourne l'acquisition de chasseurs de 5e génération.

Citation

Polish Air Force Further Postpones Procurement of 5th Generation Fighters to replace MiG-29 and Su-22 jets

Polish Air Force Modernization Initiatives do not foresee 5th Generation Fighters until at least 2022.

The plan to acquire the 5th-generation jets that would prospectively replace the Su-22 Fitter and MiG-29 Fulcrumairframes, currently operated by the Polish Air Force alongside the F-16s, has been postponed by the leadership of the Polish Ministry of Defense.

Lacking the net-centric capabilities, data-links and modern precision guided weaponry Fulcrums and Fitters are becoming more and more unsuited to the conditions of the contemporary battlefield environment.

As Tomasz Dmitruk of the Dziennik Zbrojny outlet speculates, the program in question could become a part of the subsequent planning period, between the years 2017-2026. The said modernization plan is expected to be developed next year.

In one of his interviews given to Dziennik Zbrojny, General Adam Duda, head of the Armament Inspectorate of the Polish MoD, claimed that “Harpia” program, which is to cover the acquisition of new fighters, would be scheduled to begin from 2023.

According to the statement issued by the Polish MoD, responding to a parliamentary question issued by MP Paweł Olszewski, the operational requirements review carried out by the Polish Armed Forces resulted in an assumption that the Su-22’s operations are expected to be maintained, thus, acquisition of the new jets is going to probably begin next year – here we mean the sole initiation of the procurement program as the acquisition itself would be far down the road.

The adopted modernization assumptions, when it comes to the military aircraft, are focused on several priorities, including combat and support helicopters. We do know though, that this tender faces a significant delay, for the reasons related to offset agreement negotiations and, reportedly, difficulties occurring within that process, as the current government reports.

The tender has been canceled and restarted. Polish MoD is also willing to acquire 32 attack helicopters, with logistics and training package.

Second of the priority tasks that is to be implemented by the Ministry is focused on UAVs (Unmanned Aerial Vehicles) and reconnaissance.

Operational MALE UAV systems, mini- and micro-class systems and satellite platforms are going to be acquired.

The Ministry is to procure four operational-level ZEFIR systems, 12 tactical medium range GRYF UAVs (in this case, the systems are to be manufactured by the domestic entities), 12 tactical short range Orlik systems, and 15 mini-class WIZJER aircraft.

However, all of the programs listed above were canceled on Jul. 15, 2016 and they are expected to be restarted with the new government urging the UAV systems in question to be manufactured solely by the companies controlled by the treasury and based domestically.

UAVs are also a subject to financial limitations and Polish Deputy Minister of Defence, Bartosz Kownacki, noted that extra funds would be required to finalize the procurement process.

Same conditions apply to the micro UAVs. One of the significant developments, when it comes to the UAV systems and considering the “treasury” condition mentioned above, may be seen in the fact that one of the major Polish manufacturers of such aircraft, the WB Group, has been excluded from the tendering procedures listed here, due to the fact that it remains a private entity, even though the said company offers systems that have a track-proven record and are highly advanced.

Thirdly, the Air Force is in the process of acquiring a new training platform for the pilots, in order to replace the aging TS-11 Iskra trainers. This is being done through acquisition of an integrated training package founded around the M-346 Master AJT aircraft.

The Ministry of Defense acquired 8 such airframes already, with optional procurement of another 4 examples possible, within the framework of the very same contract. Two jets have been received this year, with the remaining ones expected to be delivered in 2017.

Furthermore, the Ministry also took a course to acquire VIP aircraft for the government officials, with two types of platforms to be procured. Small VIP jets will be delivered next year, while medium aircraft are expected to be supplied throughout the years 2017, 2020 and 2021, one jet each year.

Exact deadlines will be known after the negotiation is finalized with the potential contractors.

Moreover, the MoD is also focused on securing the Armed Forces transport capabilities, especially within the tactical dimension, as well as within the scope of the NATO, EU and UN commitments (humanitarian aid operations, evacuations and deployment of special forces).

However, this has been done already, as 5 CASA C-295M airlifters have been acquired throughout the years 2010-2015, with 16 being operated by the air force, with 8 M-28 [Polish An-28 derivative] Bryza aircraft complementing the fleet.

The new aircraft to be procured will probably be imported, since no relevant potential is available and offered by the Polish industry. However, the Ministry claims that any new acquisition would have to entail a relevant offset agreement.

Considering the official information mentioned above we may assume that no plans exist, among the objectives defined by the Polish MoD, to procure any new fighter aircraft, at least at the moment. With the relevant program to be started next year, we need to wait for further developments. Back in 2014  rumors suggested that the Air Force would receive new fighter aircraft by 2020, hence the current situation shows that long-term forecast, when it comes to armament procurement, may often not turn out to be realistic.

The assets which could be allocated to procure the new fighters are going to be used, instead, in order to acquire relevant systems within the Wisła and Narew air defense programs, which are both expected to be costly, considering their complexity, and urgent, in the light of the current status of the Polish IADS (Integrated Air Defense System).

Among the analysts in Poland, two views of potential Air Force expansion exist.

The first one assumes that a MLU (mid-life upgrade) program will be launched to upgrade the F-16 jets (with AESA radars and integration of new armament including JASSM-ER missiles and possibly new Air-to-Air weaponry) along with the potential procurement of the F-16V to replace the aging Fulcrums and Fitters. Furthermore, Poland is also looking forward to expand its SEAD capabilities and the information available within the defense media-sphere suggests that procurement of the AARGM missiles for the F-16 could also be expected in the near future.

The second hypothesis assumes that new airframes, possibly Gripen-NG or the F-35, would be bought to replace the Polish Post-Soviet fighter force.

Whichever takes place, we need to patiently wait for relevant decisions to be taken.

The “procurement landscape” is quite varied, as back in 2015, when the Eurofighter Typhoon was also being promoted during the Radom Air Show, as a fighter for the Polish Air Force. What is clear though, the priorities assumed by the new right-wing government have been redefined, hence it is very unlikely that we would see any new combat aircraft in the Polish Air Force, within the upcoming decade.

This, on the other hand, would mean that whoever is elected next, would have a perfect pretext not to procure new fighters, for financial reasons.

Poland is going to be left with an air force counting of 48 F-16 jets, at least for now, as the combat usability of the Post-Soviet equipment, on the net-centric and dynamic battlefield, is highly dubious.

https://theaviationist.com/?p=40551

 

[LunchTime]

Remplacement de Mi-24

Déclaration du ministre de la defense:

“La procédure d'achat de hélicoptères d'attaque est en phase finale. Il y a actuellement deux propositions qui répondent à nos exigences opérationnelles. Pour assurer la compétitivité nous voulons à ces entités a été plus.”

“Nous parlons aussi avec les Italiens au niveau gouvernemental. Leonardo propose l'achat et le développement conjoint d'hélicoptères d'attaque.”

“Il est prévu que 16 hélicoptères soient acquis avant 2022, et 16 autres seront achetés plus tard.”

Citation

Polish Ministry of Defence: 16 Kruk Attack Helicopters and 200 UAV Systems - To Be Acquired before 2022

Polish Ministry of Defence announced that until the year 2022 it is planned that 16 Kruk attack helicopters are going to be acquired, with subsequent 16 examples to be procured following that period. 

According to the statement issued by the Polish Ministry of Defence, within the framework of the Kruk programme, it is planned that 16 helicopters are acquired before 2022, and another 16 examples would be procured later. The Ministry stresses the fact that acquisition of the attack helicopters shall be synchronized with introduction of the new air defence system. Polish MoD pointed to options of international cooperation within that scope too.

"Simultaneously, in order to implement the said programme, considering the joint EU security policy, talks began at the governmental level, also involving the Italians. It is also important that the potential common helicopter platform may constitute an example of good industrial cooperation, based on mutual trust. The aforesaid direction and initiative will form an occasion to efficiently and effectively construct and shape the security space within the EU and NATO." Polish Ministry of Defence

Kruk programme is to make it possible to find and select a successor for the obsolete Soviet-made Mi-24 attack helicopters, and to introduce the said modern design into the inventory of the Polish Army. Col. Stanisław Curyło of the Armament Inspectorate recently announced that relevant contract concerning the gunships is going to be signed in 2017, and the deliveries would be scheduled two years after that.

The Ministry also announced that before 2022, it is willing to acquire about 200 reconnaissance and intelligence-gathering UAV systems of a variety of classes.

"Meanwhile R&D works, the goal of which is to create tactical warhead-fitted drones, are also being gradually completed. The implementation of the aforesaid goal is going to take place on the basis of the potential that remains at disposal of the PGZ company. Potential low cost of acquisition (PLN 30 thousand per single unit) will make it possible to procure, within the budgetary framework, more than 1000 drones, as it had been declared before." Polish Ministry of Defence

http://www.defence24.com/502668,polish-ministry-of-defence-16-kruk-attack-helicopters-and-200-uav-systems-to-be-acquired-before-2022

 

[Teenytoon]

Qui est en concurrence ?

[LunchTime]

Il y a 15 heures, Teenytoon a dit :

Qui est en concurrence ?

L'un est la Viper. Quel est le second je n'ai aucune idée.

[Kiriyama]

Peut-être le Apache, ce serait logique.

[SharkOwl]

Ppor. Urszula Brzezinska, Pilot Mysliwca Mig-29.

Pilote de chasse féminin de Mig-29 au sein de l’armée de l’air Polonaise !

SharkOwl

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGqHSf5PYx4

[LunchTime]

Il y a 4 heures, Kiriyama a dit :

Peut-être le Apache, ce serait logique.

Je pense que l'Apache est trop cher. Probablement la deuxième proposition est un T-129 ATAK turc.
Il est possible qu'Airbus n'a pas proposé un Tigre, après le scandale du Caracal.

[rendbo]

Il y a 22 heures, Kiriyama a dit :

Peut-être le Apache, ce serait logique.

Si ils sont en discussion avec les Italiens, un A129 d'Agusta serait il possible (je ne sais pas si les chaines sont encore ouvertes)