L'Inde

[FATac]

De célèbres joueurs de Rugby (les meilleurs français de tous les temps (Serge Blanco/Philippe Sella) disaient en substances pour le sport et en particulier le Rugby:, "les Anglais ont inventé le fair-play, mais ils ne se l'appliquent que quand ils veulent, soit pas souvent  =)."

Bon je reviens  :lol:

Tant qu'on est dans le HS anglophobe (et de second degré), j'aime beaucoup ce mot attribué à Surcouf :

A un officier anglais qui déclamait que les Corsaires français se battaient pour l'argent et les Anglais pour l'honneur, Robert Surcouf lui répondit :

On se bat toujours pour ce qui nous manque le plus

Bon ... je vais faire un tour dehors ... ----> []

[Philippe Top-Force]

Tant qu'on est dans le HS anglophobe (et de second degré), j'aime beaucoup ce mot attribué à Surcouf :

Bon ... je vais faire un tour dehors ... ----> []

Ce n'est pas la minute anglophobe  FATac :lol: c'était juste pour dire à Tactac que les Anglais ne renoncent pas et sont prêts à tout faire, donc parfois laisser le côté fair play et relancer les affaires.

Sur le Rafale, s'il gagne celui-ci devra être armé, armé de quels missiles ? et avec quel pod de désignation? Les anglais peuvent avoir leurs mots à dire.

Si Bombay veut un MIDE ou METEOR MBDA UK se gagnant.Si Bombay veut un Scalp EG ou Storm Shadow là encore si c'est le storm Shadow Londres est gagnante.

Si l'Inde ne veut pas de PA CATOBAR , Londres peut placer son HMS Queen Elisabeth sur ce pays voire un des 3 Invincibles d'occasion en attendant.

Et donc Londres là encore peut avoir sa part de gâteau.

Néanmoins, les israéliens et les russes veulent aussi leurs parts de gâteaux de ce deal, Litening , missiles russes ou israéliens, ...

Bref, les négociations ne font que commencer et espérons que celle-ci ne soit pas comme celles avec les anglais sur le jet école Hawk qui ont duré 20 ans. :lol:

[Philippe Top-Force]

Suite à cet article : http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-france.fr/archive/2012/02/01/coups-de-theatre-en-inde-le-cas-des-197-helicopteres-fennec.html

on en est où ?   Eurocopter a-t-il encore une chance de vendre ses Fennec où c'est mort ?

Le Fennec est l'hélicoptère idéal qui a remporté 2 fois ce marché.En plus, il est apte pour les très hautes montagnes.Néanmoins c'est un autre marché à part, tout comme les nombreux contrats qui doivent se signer avec l'Inde.Et beaucoup cette année 2012.

Dans presque tous les domaines, Bombay veut renouveler ou optimiser son parc.Donc, si Paris peut remporter et signer définitivement plus rapidement ce deal de 197 appareils ,ce n'est pas nous qui vont dire que c'est mort.

[Fusilier]

Euhh Philippe, ni le SCALP ni le STORM  s'exportent tels quels, à ma connaissance... C'est un modèle spécifique export. Quel est le montage industriel dans ce cas?

Pour le METEOR c'est pareil, j'ai un doute. L'équipe d’ingénierie n'était pas basée en France...?

[vorpal777]

Ah non, je n'ai jamais "loué" de petite amie intérimaire, c'était toujours gratuit !!!  :lol:

C'était bien sûr sous-entendu JPC! ;)

Je suis ravi d'apprendre que tu n'as jamais offert quoi que ce soit --bijou, repas, vêtement, boa (si c'est possible!)-- à une jeune femme autre que ton épouse, dans le but de profiter de sa compréhension... :lol:

Tu es un saint homme!  :lol:

a+

Vorpal777

[vorpal777]

Ce n'est pas la minute anglophobe  FATac :lol: c'était juste pour dire à Tactac que les Anglais ne renoncent pas et sont prêts à tout faire, donc parfois laisser le côté fair play et relancer les affaires.

Bonjour Philippe

Si je peux me permettre, je pense que là il y-a un incompréhension "culturelle".

Le Français confond les notions de "fair-play" et de "chevalresque".

Cela n'a rien à voir!

Pour les Anglo-saxons, "fair-play" signifierait plutôt "ne pas faire d'esclandres lorsque l'on perd et, surtout, ne pas se faire choper"... Cela ne veut donc dire que rien ne les empêche de dénigrer l'adversaire et de faire les pires coups bas en retour d'une défaite, du moment qu'on ne peut pas explicitement prouvé le contraire.

C'est notamment en cela que les relations franco-anglo-saxonnes sont difficiles: on ne les comprend pas sur ce point et on continue à vouloir les lire selon nos propres grilles: gravissime erreur!

a+

Vorpal777

[P4]

Il me semble évident qu'il y aura le développement d'armement en commun comme un successeur du Mica si le Rafale est l'élu.

[glitter]

Si comme je le crois le choix Indien envers le Rafale est irrévocable son adoption par d'autres forces armées devient aussi un enjeu pour l'Inde et le "mother of all deals" prend du sens.

Ah ben ca, utilisateur privilegie de Dassault (en cas de signature pour le Rafale, apres celles du mirage 2000), on pourrait imaginer des liens entre L'Inde et les pays qui se soucis de la montee en puissance de la Chine, et il y en a quand meme quelques uns.

[Grabber56]

Euhh Philippe, ni le SCALP ni le STORM  s'exportent tels quels, à ma connaissance... C'est un modèle spécifique export. Quel est le montage industriel dans ce cas?

Pour le METEOR c'est pareil, j'ai un doute. L'équipe d’ingénierie n'était pas basée en France...?

le meteor est un pouding,  il a fallu nourrir tout le monde , les tech sensibles elles sont plutot françaises !

de toute façon EADS france a suffisament de galettes technologiques pour pouvoir avoir fait un meteor par elle meme sans besoin des amraam goers !

les anglais n'ont aucun droit de regard sur la vente d'armement par la France , si ils rallent, bah on fera par nous meme et  non seulement on est les seuls en europe à voir le porfolio de MBDA quand on enleve les trucs ricains, à avoir la tech et l’expérience , mais eux  perdraient beaucoup en froissant les français!

[Marcus]

D'abord utilisés pour des missions de supériorité aérienne, les Mirage 2000 indiens sont ensuite modifiés localement afin de pouvoir effectuer missions d'attaque au sol (qu'ils sont les seuls à pouvoir mener à ces altitudes). Au total, ces avions effectuent plus de 500 missions et larguent plus de 55 tonnes de bombes pendant ce conflit.

On peut aussi rajouter que les Mirage 2000 Indiens sont aptes à transporter l'arme nucléaire Indienne. Tout les avions Indiens ne sont pas équipé pour cette mission. Il faut des biplaces. Il y a des jaguars, des vieux migs. De plus cette arme doit être lourde.

Et cet article pour les missions Air-sol classiques prend particulièrement du sel dans le cadre d'un bombardement nucléaire.

La guerre du Kargil a montré que le Pakistan est capable de mettre en place une stratégie avec des bases situées en altitude. S'il la situation avait dégénéré, il aurait été difficile d'envisager l'utilisation de l'arme nucléaire Indienne.

[Chimera]

Très très bon résumé d'un membre de mp.net:

Very interesting :

source : http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vie...6343&start=280

MMRCA in retrospect:

Right from the beginning I sad that the MMRCA contest was for the French to "lose".More than the other aircraft,they had the "inside lane" as the IAF was very happy with the M-2000,had earlier wanted more of them,plus possessed several French missiles and used French avionics and key components from SAGEM,etc. in the SU-30MKI programme too.With the IAF signing up with Russia for the FGFA/PAK-FA 5th-gen fiighter,there was little point other than a much lesser acquisition cost for acquiring the MIG-35. Acquiring either US or Euro tech was the best way to widen the tech base of Indian aerospace ,especially when it came to AESA radars,NCW and engines.

With the impossible conditions attached to US weapon systems,the intrusive inspections,a track record of sanctions that crippled the LCA programme at a crucial stage,setting it back by a few years,the fact that it refused to abandon Pak,India's mortal enemy despite 9/11,26/11,etc.;the latest NATO report says that Pak is still supporting the Taliban (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... veals.html),that Pak operated F-16s and both US aircraft were of 3rd gen vintage with extra "makeup",the F-18SH quite expensive too,both US aircraft were handicapped right from the start.

The Gripen was a great little aircraft but too close to the LCA in size and style to be picked as it would endanger the LCA programme still in its developmental stage.Flying with a US engine made it also vulnerable to US sanctions.Veteran high ranking IAF air marshals too preferred a twin-engined aircraft given the high rate of bird strikes in the country,and he sudden emergence of Chinese agression (political,diplomatic and military),which was unforseen by the myopic political/MEA establishment.Waging an air war across Himalayan heights and operating from high alt. airstrips required powerful twin-engined aircraft preferably.

Rafale and Typhoon were the latest 4+ gen Eurocanards that were available and were justifiably shortlisted.But there was a concerted campaign to bring back the US through the back door. Shocked and stunned at being dumped into the dustbin,as the US mistakenly thought that the deal was theirs for the asking after the N-deal was signed,tried desperately touting the JSF as a superior bird .With the PAK-FA/FGFA prototypes already flying,deal signed and sealed with Russia,there was little point in even considering the JSF which was itself the subject of a raging controversy in the US over its delayed arrival,developmental problems and massive cost overruns,prompting even its closest allies like Britain to dump the STOVL version option and drastically reduce numbers of JSFs to be acquired.More importantly,if closest ally Britain could not get 5th-gen JSF tech from the US,fat chance non-ally India would get anything more than screwdriver tech ! The US had also planned a "three-tier" system for export versions depending upon how much moolah an ally had contributed to its development.So one would fly in first,second or third class seats depending upon the price you paid! Lastly,even the USAF were going to get their first sqd. only in 2019 and currently had no aircraft upon which their pilots could be trained.Some US politicos even wanted the whole or part of the project scrapped! To add insult to injury,despite all these well known facts, US diplomutts and military experts kept on touting the JSF through "megaphone" methods,even roping in Indian "cheer leaders",imagining that the IAF were ignoramuses and that a concerted PR campaign would make it dump the two finalists in favour of an aircraft that cannot better the air-to-air combat capability of a '70s vintage F-16!

Between the two in performance there was little to choose from.Both did fit the bill and were shortlisted with costs being the deciding factor...in principle.In reality however,it appears in retrospect,that the IAF had already made up its mind after the first technical evaluation.Dealing with one nation was so much more preferable to attending innumerable multi-national conferences required for each decision on EF upgrades etc., which had to be approved by each partner! This could prove a proverbial "Brussels" nightmare for the MOD later on.Open criticism from British MPs and others about the high cost of development and exorbitant price ,made the EF less attractive than the Rafale.,which had the edge but was equally expensive having been bought by no other nation! It was a regular loser in contests and despite good showings in battle in Afghanistan and Libya,there was doubt in certain quarters about future French commitment to its future development.

Despite the "tilt" in the Rafale's favour ,the French problem was how to swing in the final financial stakes such an expensive aircraft which had failed in many competitions in contributary part due to its high cost? The answer was to award the French a few lucrative contracts in advance,or assure them of the same,so that they could use the anticipated "bonus profits" to make an attractive bid.This they quietly did well knowing what the price-band the EF would be offered at,given their experience in previous contests where they had lost to the Euro-bird.

Thus the M-2000 upgrade was first signed,at exorbitant costs,even questioned by many within the IAF itself. This assured the French that they would have adequate financial bargaining power in the final bid.Deal 2 for MICA AAMs was also cleverly done,AFTER the shortlisting,so as not to excite and arouse suspicions.A masterstroke! They well knew that it would come through,and at what cost,and factored in this additional bargaining chip.The EF camp knew that the French would give a good discount as they were more desperate than even the EF nations,who were sure of more orders as an interim buy,for nations who had opted for the JSF,whose final costs still could not be determined and much delayed, thanks to developmental technical problems,and now expected to arrive in European colours only in 2020+.They felt assured from the warm reception their heads received when in India and from the keen interest being shown in the EF and deliberate leaks in the media that they were "in front",lulled them into a false sense of belief in winning the contest on both technical and cost factors.Their discounted price was therefore also attractive but they never estimated how much lower the French would actually go as "deal-2" for MICA missiles had not yet been signed.

Despite being lower,even after the bids were opened,the frantic scuttling between Europe and India by reps of both sides, showed how close a call the deal actually was,but the "inside lane" that the Rafale had was the vital "edge".If political considerations too played a vital part,the French were up there right at the top with UN reforms,N-plants and N-tech to sweeten the deal. All-in-all,a monumental and famous victory for the French ,as they defeated not just the Russians and Swedes,but also the all-mighty US of A,which had the GOI in its pocket in many ways. Most deliciously of all they defeated "perfidious Albion" ,with whom Pres.Sarko had just had the most inelegant of public spats with his opposite number David Cameron at an EU summit.The equally public spat between Britan and Germany over the fall of the Euro did nothing to advance their case for seamless multi-national "cooperation" of the EF's diverse partenrs. David C'ameron's dismay and desperate plea to the GOI to "reconsider" the myriad virtues of his "daughter" offered in marriage and spurned by the "groom", indicates how much the decision is smarting for the Eurofighter nations,especially the British.

Gen.Dupleix must be raising a glass of "champers" wherever he is ,not forgetting another Frenchman,a certain Napoleon Bonaparte!

The last throw of the dice from the losing encampments will be trying to influence the Indian Fin. Min. to delay or dump the deal on the basis of the huge sums involved in acquiring it.There's "many a slip 'tween the cup and the lip",but saying it for perhaps the last time,"the deal is for the French to lose" and I doubt very much if they will let it slip out of their hands this time.Too much rides on this deal for France,not least the outcome of the next French presidential elections.Asterix and Obelix have defeated not just the multi-national Roman army and the Cossacks,but also "Hagar the Horrible" and last but not least."Micky Mouse.Donald Duck and Goofy" !

[Carl]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/156153-options-paf-after-india-selects-rafale-mmrca.html

Un fil de discussion assez intéressant et très animé entre forumeurs essentiellement indiens et pakistanais sur les options des pakistanais suite à la sélection du Rafale par l'Inde.

J'ai lu que le début mais ils ont posté 40 pages en 2 jours ( jusqu'à fermeture du fil pour HS et trollage intensif  =))

[Chimera]

Ouh ouch ouch.... fait ma à lire... et en plus au dessus de l'article, une vieille pub Eurofighter toute pourrie  :lol:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/feature/5/132379/why-rafale-won-in-india.html

The Real Reasons for Rafale’s Indian Victory

(Source: defense-aerospace.com; published Feb. 1, 2012)

By Giovanni de Briganti

PARIS --- While many observers cite technology transfer, prices and performance as being major factors in India’s selection of the Rafale as its next-generation fighter, reality is very different even if these factors obviously did play a significant role.

In the same way that it is true that Rafale lost several competitions through no fault of its own, it must be recognized that its victory in India was also won, to a great extent, through no fault of its own. The real reason for its victory is political, and the long memory of Indian politicians was a major contributing factor.

This is not to say, however, that Rafale’s own impressive qualities had nothing to do with its selection. The Indian Air Force, which was extensively briefed by the French air force in the autumn, was particularly impressed by its operational performance during the Libyan bombing campaign and in Afghanistan. Rafale also has a naval variant which could be of future interest to India, given its plans to buy and build aircraft carriers, while the recent decision to upgrade India’s Mirage 2000H fighters will simplify the air force’s logistics chain, as these will share with Rafale many weapons and other equipment.

The Indian Air Force also is a satisfied user of long standing of French fighters, going back to the Dassault Ouragan in the 1950s. It was also particularly appreciative of the performance of its Mirages during the 1999 Kargil campaign against Pakistan, and of the support it then obtained from France. During that campaign, India obtained French clearance – and possibly more - to urgently adapt Israeli and Russian-supplied laser-guided bombs to the Mirages, which were thus able to successfully engage high-altitude targets that Indian MiG-23s and MiG-27s had been unable to reach.

Rafale was preferred because of lower costs, and the Indian air force's familiarity with French warplanes such as the Mirage, Bloomberg reported Feb. 1 quoting an Indian source who asked not be named. "Unit-wise, the French plane is much cheaper than the Eurofighter. Moreover, the Indian air force, which is well equipped with French fighters, is favouring the French," the source said.

To Indian officials, France’s steadfastness as a military ally contrasted strongly with that of the United States, which stopped F-16 deliveries to Pakistan (but kept the money) when it found it expedient to do so, and slowed or vetoed delivery of components for Light Combat Aircraft that India was developing. And, of course, the 1998 arms embargo, decreed by the US after India’s nuclear test in May of that year, left a very bad taste in Indian mouths. France, on the contrary, was the only Western nation not to impose sanctions on that occasion.

That, Indian sources say, was New Delhi’s real reason for eliminating Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the fighter competition; India has resolved, these sources say, to buy only second-line equipment from the U.S., such as transport (C-17, C-130J) or maritime patrol aircraft (P-8I). Vital weapons such as missiles and fighters, when they cannot be locally produced, will remain the preserve of France and Russia.

Political considerations were also a significant factor playing against Rafale’s final competitor, the Eurofighter Typhoon. As this aircraft is produced by a consortium of four nations, each with different foreign policies and different attitudes and tolerances to arms exports, Indian officials were a bit nervous about their ultimate reliability as a single supplier.

Germany is a long-standing Indian aviation partner, and a respected role model for Indian politicians, many of whom were educated there. German companies – essentially the former Messerschmitt-Boelkow-Blohm, now part of EADS - helped Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. develop both the LCA and the Advanced Light Helicopter, now called Dhruv. These links were the reason the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany’s Cassidian, and not BAE Systems, the former colonial power. But Germany had dithered over technology transfer for LCA, soft-pedaled on ALH tech transfer when German pacifists raised their eyebrows, and coughed when India almost went to war with Pakistan over Kargil and Kashmir, so in the final analysis it could not be considered a reliable supplier of major weapons.

Italy has never sold a major weapon to India, and so could bring neither influence nor reputation to support Eurofighter, while the third partner, Spain, is totally absent from the Indian military landscape.

This left BAE Systems as the best-known Eurofighter partner in India, and so by default as its ultimate public face. BAE in 2003 sold £1.5 billion’s worth of Hawk jet trainers to India, with a follow-on, £500 million order in 2010. However, its previous major sale to India was the Jaguar light attack aircraft in the 1970s. In fact, this aircraft was jointly developed by Britain and France on a 50/50 basis, and while it was license-produced by HAL it was never really successful as a fighter. Furthermore, France could claim as much benefit from its Indian career as BAE.

Taken together, the Eurofighter partner nations posed an even thornier problem: in case of war, German law prohibits deliveries of weapons and spares, Italian law and public opinions would demand an embargo, while Spanish legislation is murky. What would happen, Indian politicians must have wondered, if after buying the Eurofighter they went to war? Would spares and weapons be forthcoming, or would they be embargoed? The political risk was obviously too big to take.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect.

Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it.

Given that India had sworn to buy the cheapest compliant competitor, it would have been unable to justify picking the Rafale had this not been offered at the lower price. While official figures have not been released, and indeed may never be, initial reports from New Delhi claim that Rafale was offered at a unit price of $4-$5 million less than Eurofighter, which is a surprisingly large advantage given the French aircraft’s reputation of being high-priced.

The French offer also featured substantially lower costs of ownership, according to the same reports, thanks to lower fuel consumption and simpler maintenance requirements.

If true, these figures imply the French offer undercut Eurofighter by over $600 million, which is a large enough difference for one French insider to wonder whether Dassault Aviation will ever make any money on the contract.

But, even if it doesn’t, the Indian contract gives Rafale instant legitimacy, not only because of the thoroughness and transparency of the bidding process, but also because India is the only country to have fought four and a half major wars since 1948, and so knows something about air combat.

For Dassault, the Rafale program will now remain active, with a stabilized production line, for decades to come, and the company will have that much more time to find additional customers. Keeping its production line and supply chain humming at an economically-viable rate are sufficiently valuable achievements to push immediate profits into the sidelines. Supporting 126 – and possibly 206, if India buys an optional second batch – combat aircraft, and providing spares, fixes and upgrades over the next 40 years, will generate gigantic profits, and this more than justified lowering Dassault’s notoriously high profit margins.

In fact, as one industry official noted, "this is France's answer to 'Al Yamamah', but with twice as many aircraft," drawing a parallel with the UK's sale of Tornado fighters and related services to Saudi Arabia, which was instrumental in keeping BAE Systems prosperous throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

And, as French Defense Minister Gérard Longuet told reporters during an impromptu press conference in Parliament, France may soon find “that good news travels in formation,” implying that further, long-deferred contracts might soon be announced.

[Jojo67]

Bonjour Philippe

Si je peux me permettre, je pense que là il y-a un incompréhension "culturelle".

Le Français confond les notions de "fair-play" et de "chevalresque".

Cela n'a rien à voir!

Pour les Anglo-saxons, "fair-play" signifierait plutôt "ne pas faire d'esclandres lorsque l'on perd et, surtout, ne pas se faire choper"... Cela ne veut donc dire que rien ne les empêche de dénigrer l'adversaire et de faire les pires coups bas en retour d'une défaite, du moment qu'on ne peut pas explicitement prouvé le contraire.

C'est notamment en cela que les relations franco-anglo-saxonnes sont difficiles: on ne les comprend pas sur ce point et on continue à vouloir les lire selon nos propres grilles: gravissime erreur!

a+

Vorpal777

Très intéressante analyse, cela doit nous rappeler que les Français sont fondamentalement dans leurs gènes un peuple de paysans, alors que les Anglais sont fondamentalement un peuple de marchands et de boutiquiers. Les uns habitués à se frotter à la terre, les autres à leurs fournisseurs et à leurs clients.

Ps: Bon quand je dis "frotter" n'y voyez pas malice, même si outre-Manche bon, ben... :lol:

[Fusilier]

Très intéressante analyse, cela doit nous rappeler que les Français sont fondamentalement dans leurs gènes un peuple de paysans, alors que les Anglais sont fondamentalement un peuple de marchands et de boutiquiers. Les uns habitués à se frotter à la terre, les autres à leurs fournisseurs et à leurs clients.

Ps: Bon quand je dis "frotter" n'y voyez pas malice, même si outre-Manche bon, ben... :lol:

Je suis pas certain que les descendants des mineurs du pays de Galles ou des ouvriers des industries manufacturières de Manchester et Liverpool, se reconnaissent dans ce portrait... :lol: 

[Eise]

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid1784-c-les-guignols.html?vid=585692

Quelqu'un m'explique d'où le Rafale tient cette qualification douteuse comme Avion qui n'atteind jamais ses cibles ? Merci les guignols ! (2ème minute)

La même ici, dès le début cette fois :

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid1784-c-les-guignols.html?vid=585692

[Jojo67]

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid1784-c-les-guignols.html?vid=585692

Quelqu'un m'explique d'où le Rafale tient cette qualification douteuse comme Avion qui n'atteind jamais ses cibles ? Merci les guignols ! (2ème minute)

La même ici, dès le début cette fois :

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/pid1784-c-les-guignols.html?vid=585692

Les Guignols sont des cons, et ça ne date pas d'hier.

[DarkSablo]

Les Guignols sont des cons, et ça ne date pas d'hier.

C'est juste de l'humour, je doute que le mecanisme de selection d'un chasseur, se base sur des criteres comme a-t-il une bonne image dans les emissions satyriques/critiques/comiques...

[Eise]

C'est juste de l'humour, je doute que le mecanisme de selection d'un chasseur, se base sur des criteres comme a-t-il une bonne image dans les emissions satyriques/critiques/comiques...

Oui mais de l'humour infondé. Ils auraient pu dire pour les syriens par exemple que les Rafales seraient en partie construit en Inde ou kkchose du genre. Là que le Rafale soit le seul au monde à ne pas faire de dégâts (alors qu'il y a récemment la Libye...) je trouve ça gros, pour l'EF à la limite je veux bien, mais pour le Rafale...

[vorpal777]

Très intéressante analyse, cela doit nous rappeler que les Français sont fondamentalement dans leurs gènes un peuple de paysans, alors que les Anglais sont fondamentalement un peuple de marchands et de boutiquiers. Les uns habitués à se frotter à la terre, les autres à leurs fournisseurs et à leurs clients.

Ps: Bon quand je dis "frotter" n'y voyez pas malice, même si outre-Manche bon, ben... :lol:

"Honni soit qui mal y pense." mon cher Jojo67!

Quoique... ;)

a+

Vorpal777

[jérôme]

http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/economie/article/vente-de-126-rafales-dassault-vers-109389

[Claudio Lopez]

http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/economie/article/vente-de-126-rafales-dassault-vers-109389

Dans l'aricle, il y a l'apparition d'un nouveau groupe européen censé concurrencer Dassault !

Donc grand appel d’offres pour tout moderniser qui se termine par une finale d'un entre l'Eurocopter européen et le Rafale français de Dassault. Un choix purement technique (et non une opportunité suite à un rabais commercial sans précédent voyons) assure t'on du côté des spécialistes indiens.

:lol:

[seb24]

Dans l'aricle, il y a l'apparition d'un nouveau groupe européen censé concurrencer Dassault !

:lol:

CA fait deux fois qu'ils citent Eurcopter comme concurrent de Dassault  :lol:

[glitter]

http://www.agoravox.fr/actualites/economie/article/vente-de-126-rafales-dassault-vers-109389

Il y a quelques annees, ce site etait vraiment excellent, avec des auteurs de differents horizons, etc etc.

Maintenant, ca n'est qu'un refuge de paranoiaques qui ressortent les bons arguements "la guerre, c'est mal".

[jojo (lo savoyârd)]

...//... Sur le Rafale, s'il gagne celui-ci devra être armé, armé de quels missiles ? et avec quel pod de désignation? es anglais peuvent avoir leurs mots à dire.

Si Bombay veut un MIDE ou METEOR MBDA UK se gagnant.Si Bombay veut un Scalp EG ou Storm Shadow là encore si c'est le storm Shadow Londres est gagnante.

Si l'Inde ne veut pas de PA CATOBAR , Londres peut placer son HMS Queen Elisabeth sur ce pays voire un des 3 Invincibles d'occasion en attendant.

Et donc Londres là encore peut avoir sa part de gâteau.

Néanmoins, les israéliens et les russes veulent aussi leurs parts de gâteaux de ce deal, Litening , missiles russes ou israéliens, ...

Bref, les négociations ne font que commencer et espérons que celle-ci ne soit pas comme celles avec les anglais sur le jet école Hawk qui ont duré 20 ans. :lol:

Citation d'un internaute :

"Les dernières nouvelles: Les négociations commencent; le plus dur reste à faire...

Négociations sur:

- Transfert de technologies (aérostructures, électronique embarquée...

- Coût des licences de production

- Equipements et armements

1)- L'Inde espère acquérir de l'expérience dans:

° participation à la fabrication du RBE2-AESA

° centrales inertielles

° accès aux sources du calculateur central

° à terme remplacement des M88-4E de 7,5 To, par le moteur de 9 To

développé en coopération avec l'industriel local "Kaveri"

2)- Coût des licences de production: de nouvelles équipes viendront renforcer

les antennes commerciales déjà sur place. Afin d'encadrer les transferts

de technologies, des attachés de la défense seront détachés à l'ambassade

de France à New Dehli. Leitmotiv: éviter que le coût de l'"indianisation"

de l'avion ne devienne prohibitif!

3)- Equipements et armements

Le standard F30-4T servira de base aux extension futurs.

D'après les renseignements connus à ce jour, on peut établir la liste suivante:

° Scalp-EG

° Exocet AM39 Block 2, Mod 2

° Missile antiradar (à développer)

° viseur de casque (co-développement Samtel-Thales

(amélioration du TopSight de Thales)

° Radar RBE2-ASEA

° Détecteur départ missile amélioré DDM-NG (MBDA)

° Mica IR et EM

° Kits de guidage modulaires AASM (Sagem)

° Nacelle Reco NG (Thales)

° Nacelle de désignation Damocles

D'autres possibilités sont encore à l'étude (confidentiel)"

Si vous avez quelque chose pour confirmer ?