Le F-35

[g4lly]

3 minutes ago, Toratoratora said:

Je ne sais pas, donc je n'irai pas plus loin.

Les bases sont de vrais passoire pour tout un tas de raison ... que les militaires ne maîtrisent pas forcément. Externalisation, coopération etc.

[herciv]

Un rapport très intéressant datant de 2016 concernant le choix du f-35 par les australiens.

Attention à ne pas lire uniquement les extraits. Je n'ai pas mis les réponses aux question de l'ASPI par le ministère de la défense.

On y append

- Le rayon d'intervention en AIR-AIR d'un F-35 : 500nm (p10)

- la définition d'un 5gen ( p11)

furtif + networkcentric + sensor fusion : le rafale F4 me direz-vous, mais non car il faut que ce soit prévu dès l'origine sinon c'est pas du jeux. 

Lockheed Martin explained that there are five key elements that define fifthgeneration fighters: very low observable (VLO) stealth, fighter performance, sensor fusion, net-centric operations and advanced air-defence environments.18 When asked to explain the key differences between fourth and fifth generation fighters, Mr Jeff Babione, the Executive Vice President and General Manager of the F-35 Program at Lockheed Martin, emphasised the stealth, network-centric capability and sensor fusion provided by fifth generation fighters, noting that these advantages cannot be simply added to fourth-generation fighters but must be designed from the beginning.

- L'australie aura son IOT en 2020 comme prévu malgré les retards du programme (p 18)

- le f-35 ne manœuvre pas mieux que le f-16 ou le f-18 (euphémisme ?) p19

A number of submissions raised concerns regarding the F-35's manoeuvrability and flight capabilities.7 Mr Peter Goon, Head of Test and Evaluation for Air Power Australia, told the committee that the F-35's flight capabilities do not exceed those of the F-16 and F/A-18 and questioned whether this would adequately serve Australia's future needs: 

The F-35A has combat weight of 18.3 tonnes, a wing loading of 428 kg/m2, thrust-to-weight ratio of 1.07 and span loading of 1.75 tonnes/m. Wing sweep is 34°, and the engine has a power-to-frontal area ratio of 17.9 N/cm2. As a result, the F-35 has very low instantaneous and sustained turn rates (less than half of the F-22's sustained turn rate, or ~11° per second) as well as low acceleration, while its weight harms the transient performance. The F-35's inefficient aerodynamics and inefficient power plant also limits combat endurance despite an excellent fuel fraction of 0.38. The F-35 has a specific fuel consumption of 0.9 lb/lb/hour versus 0.75 for other advanced combat jet engines.

Attention toutefois (p21) certain pilote trouve le f-35 plus maneuvrant que le f-18 : Defence noted that Squadron Leader Andrew Jackson, an experienced pilot who has flown both the F/A-18 and the F-35A, found the F-35 to be superior to the F/A-18, stating that 'in [his] experience flying more than 140 hours in the F-35 so far, it is better in performance and manoeuvrability than a representatively configured F/A-18 while remaining easy to fly'.14

- le f-35 est fait pour éviter le combat à vue (p 20)

The F-35's unequalled situational awareness, combined with advanced weapons and countermeasures, makes the F-35 highly survivable and lethal when confronting advanced threats in the air, land and sea battle space. It is not designed to perform like the F-22, a high altitude air-to-air combat aircraft. It is a multi-role aircraft designed to avoid Within Visual Range operations with acceptable turn performance comparable to the F-15E and F/A-18.11

 

- le f-35 est correctement invisible vu de devant mais beaucoup moins vu d'un autre angle (p21-22) et ça ne peut pas être changé compte tenu de la forme

The JSF's stealth performance, reflected in shaping, was optimised around this model, with independent technical analyses showing that the Aircraft will have viable stealth in the front sector, but much weaker stealth performance in the beam and aft sectors. The evolving market for radars and surface to air missiles has, however, taken a different turn to that anticipated when the JSF program was launched. Highly mobile long range SAMs, supported by high-power aperture radars, have been far more popular in the market than the short and medium range weapons which the JSF was defined to and built to defeat.

Mr Daniel Nowlan asserted that the F-35 is not 'all aspect stealth' and that as a consequence, 'any stealth advantage the F-35 enjoys is temporary at best and already compromised'. Mr Nowlan explained that the F-35's inferior stealth capabilities are a consequence of shaping and cannot be changed.

What all this means in plain English is that any stealth advantage the F-35 enjoys is temporary at best and is already compromised. A very stark example of this is that Russia has ordered 100 55Zh6ME Nebo M radars. This is a mobile radar that combines VHF, L-band and S-band components with data fusion for counter-stealth. It is also highly likely this radar system will be available for export.17

- la complexité du logiciel pose problème (p25)

 number of submissions raised concerns regarding the performance of the F-35's mission systems.27 Mr Mills noted that the F-35's air combat capabilities are dependent on the proper functioning of the mission systems software and that the mission systems software development 'is said to be the largest project of its type in the world'. This engenders significant risks of failure: In software development, increasing the size of the code-base presents an exponentially increasing risk of failure. For example, 'regression testing' must prove that a sub-program for one operational function does not have adverse or unforeseen consequences to other operational subprograms. Synchronising 'real time' computations across a complex multifunction platform such as the JSF aircraft is another substantial risk.28

 

- Quelques point concernant le HMD (p27) dont un concernant une régression entre la version 2 et la 3. Apparrememnt le HMD block III ne posait pas de problème en 2016...

Aided Night Vision Acuity: in which there was insufficient contrast in low light conditions; and  • Alignment/Optical Targeting Accuracy: in which symbols' alignment accuracy met requirements for Block 2 capabilities but needed to be improved to meet alignment accuracy requirements for Block 3 and up, which are driven by gun strafe capabilities requirements

 

- dépendance dans ALIS et pas de moyen de faire sans les US (p28)

Some submissions raised concerns regarding the F-35's reliance on data exchanges.39 Mr Archibald warned that disruptions to data exchanges could significantly compromise the F-35's effectiveness and noted that aircraft turn-around will be directly linked to the speed with which the necessary data can be downloaded and uploaded:

Mr Robert Charette asserted that the F-35 cannot function without all of its software operating at an extremely high level, describing the F-35's reliance on ALIS as a 'major source of operational risk'Software is the heart and soul of the F-35: without it functioning at an extremely high level of reliability, availability and maintainability, the F-35 is no more than a nice aircraft museum piece. This includes both the embedded software found on the aircraft itself, as well as the ALIS system which is tightly coupled in an unprecedented manner to the F-35…If ALIS indicates that an F-35 isn't ready to fly, it takes significant manual effort to override its decision. Further, it is a major source of operational risk: if ALIS doesn't work correctly, it is no exaggeration to state that the aircraft doesn't work, either. From a systems view, the reliability of the F-35 is a combination of both the embedded flight systems' software and the ALIS system, a fact that the F-35 program understandably does not wish to highlight.

 

Cybersécurité Patché et pas penseé dès l'origine (p31)

there is now a requirement for greatly enhanced cyber security above that which was planned for when the F-35 and ALIS were first being developed. As the F-35 contractor program team has admitted, this was an 'unforeseen requirement', at least in its scope. While debatable, the fact remains that to implement security into a system after the fact, rather than designing it in from the beginning, is a well-known 'original sin' of any software system development. With the extensive use of commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) software in ALIS, much without robust cyber security built in from the beginning, is an especially worrying concern.

 

Le VSIM fait pour tester le F-35 est fait dans un LMWONDERLAND (p32)

[The simulation results] only represent parts of a virtual F-35 in a virtual world (Lockheed Martin Land) where the laws of physics, advanced threats and systems are ignored and the virtual F-35 has capabilities that do not exist outside of the simulation. Right now [the simulation] is not only incomplete in terms of contemporary and future threats as well as models for the combat scenarios but also inaccurate for its intended purpose.

 

Attendre le f-35 coûte beaucoup d'argent pour ne pas avoir de trou capacitaire. En cinq le coût annuel a double pour le f-18. (p39) On comprend que les australiens les ai vendu au Canada.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) asserted that Defence should prepare a hedging strategy that provides for the possibility of further delays to the
 F-35 delivery. ASPI explained that a failure to do so could 'drastically limit the range of possible responses in the early 2020s, and a capability gap could become a possibility'.12 ASPI noted the wisdom of past hedging stratégies:

 

Alternative : racheter des F/A-18F décision en 2019 au plus tard (l'US navy vient de le faire) (p40)

ASPI advised that the 'most sensible hedge' would be to order another tranche of F/A-18F Super Hornets. ASPI explained that this would be the best option as no other fifth-generation aircraft is available on the world market; most, if not all, of the fixed costs of acquiring the Super Hornet have already been borne; and any other type of aircraft would bring with it new supply chains and flight and ground crew training requirements, putting strain on the RAAF's capacity to absorb the several other new types of aircraft in the pipeline. ASPI noted that, taking into consideration a three or more year lead time for the delivery of a new-build Super Hornet, a decision would need to be made by 2019 at the latest.

ASPI noted that, taking into consideration a three or more year lead time for the delivery of a new-build Super Hornet, a decision would need to be made by 2019 at the latest.

 

RAFALE ET GRIPEN pourraient être de vrai alternative en 2019 (p45 et 46)

While it may not have the stealth capabilities of 5th generation aircraft such as the F-35, the Gripen has many other attributes such as higher speed (up to Mach 2 I understand, as opposed to 1.6 for the F-35A), better manoeuvrability due to its canard-delta wing configuration, the ability to carry a greater weapons payload for sustained fighting, and perhaps most importantly, a better range and combat radius, able to be extended even further through aerial refuelling with our fleet of KC-30A MRTT aircraft. As a complete package, it out-performs the F-35A in almost every arena, and would give our forces one of the best platforms with which to fight and win against the newest generations of Sukhoi, Mikoyan and various Chinese-built fighters which have been talked about already.36

Some submissions mentioned the Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale as potential alternatives to the F-35.38 Mr Marcus Kollakides noted that 'the Eurofighter Typhoon is probably the world leading dogfighter and air superiority fighter, possibly just inferior to the F-22 Raptor'. Mr Kollakides described the Dassault Rafale as 'a brilliant dogfighter, so close to the Typhoon in ability it is difficult to call'. Mr Kollakides also noted the Dassault Rafale's multi-role capabilities: 'it has exceptional strength and design features which lend themselves to multi role capabilities above and beyond the Gripen or Typhoon' and 'would meet or exceed all the requirements for Australia'

La suite au prochain épisode

Pardon un oubli :www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/fadt_ctte/JointStrikeFighter/report.pdf

Modifié le 21 janvier 2018 par herciv

[Brian McNewbie]

Merci beaucoup @herciv. Il semble cependant que l'upload du pdf ne fonctionne pas - en tout cas depuis chez moi je ne voit que le chemin en local sur ta machine qui mène au fichier.

[herciv]

www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/fadt_ctte/JointStrikeFighter/report.pdf

il y a 25 minutes, Brian McNewbie a dit :

Merci beaucoup @herciv. Il semble cependant que l'upload du pdf ne fonctionne pas - en tout cas depuis chez moi je ne voit que le chemin en local sur ta machine qui mène au fichier.

Merci c'est corrigé maintenant.

Modifié le 21 janvier 2018 par herciv

[zx]

la référence au radar nebo me fait rappeler ce vieux article de 2015

http://aviationweek.com/technology/new-radars-irst-strengthen-stealth-detection-claims

[herciv]

@ftami puisque tu es là il y a une partie qui concerne les coûts.

[ftami]

il y a 2 minutes, herciv a dit :

@ftami puisque tu es là il y a une partie qui concerne les coûts.

Chuuuuuut, je passais incognito !

:D

Modifié le 21 janvier 2018 par ftami

[herciv]

Allez une petite pour la forme pour les retombées sur l'industries :(p57)

Many submitters agreed that the impact of the F-35 Program on local Australian industry, and subsequently the Australian economy, has been positive. However, it should be noted that Australia has made significant efforts to artificially support local companies to become part of global supply chains.38 This has been in the form of a variety of government programs, such as financial investment through the Export Finance and Insurance Corporation, innovation grants, and tax offsets. A full list is provided at the end of the chapter.

Sous-traitance : quelques râtés (p65)

However, the committee was told that at least one Australian company has already been forced into liquidation due to delays and reductions in its F-35. contracts.82 Although the strength of the Australian dollar and slow-down in Defence spending contributed to the company's voluntary administration, the company cited the cancellation of F-35 engine contracts as a major factor.

One submitter expressed uncertainty as to the value Australia would gain from future potential F-35 contracts.84 In 2007, it was reported by the media that Australian industry would reap potential earnings of AUD$9 billion over its three decade involvement in the F-35 Program.85 In 2010, it was reported that Lockheed Martin estimated that, 'over the 20 year production life of the JSF, the Australian share of work is currently projected to be somewhere between $11.5 and $12 billion, with further opportunities to follow'.86 In 2015, Air Vice-Marshal Deeble, Program Manager, Joint Strike Fighter, estimated that 'Australian industry stands to win in excess of $1.5 billion in JSF-related production and support work over the life of the JSF program'.87 Now in 2016, Defence has estimated that:  …the potential total contracted value of the opportunities currently being worked by Australian industry could reach US$2 billion by 2023, assuming businesses are able to maintain globally competitive levels of performance on price, schedule and quality. If Australian companies continue to remain competitive in production then contracts to the value of US$4 billion are feasible out to the end of production in 2035.88

[herciv]

Et à la fin le comité recommande de poursuivre le f-35 en prennant des recommandations (il s'en lave les mains ...) puisque tous est secret.

[Patrick]

Il y a 7 heures, herciv a dit :

Mr Marcus Kollakides noted that 'the Eurofighter Typhoon is probably the world leading dogfighter and air superiority fighter, possibly just inferior to the F-22 Raptor'. Mr Kollakides described the Dassault Rafale as 'a brilliant dogfighter, so close to the Typhoon in ability it is difficult to call'.

Quelqu'un se dévoue pour lui expliquer ?
Ou au minimum lui montrer deux ou trois vidéos HUD d'engagement canon+fox2 ?
 

[rendbo]

Il y a 14 heures, herciv a dit :

Lockheed Martin explained that there are five key elements that define fifthgeneration fighters: very low observable (VLO) stealth, fighter performance, sensor fusion, net-centric operations and advanced air-defence environments

Il me semble que le F22 ne remplit déjà pas ce critère marketing.

[DEFA550]

Il y a 2 heures, rendbo a dit :

Il me semble que le F22 ne remplit déjà pas ce critère marketing.

C'est une question de contexte.

Quand on parle du F-22, un avion de 5ème génération doit être furtif, super-manoeuvrable et doté d'une capacité de supercroisière tactiquement significative.

Quand on parle du F-35, un avion de 5ème génération doit être furtif, connecté et dopé à la "sensor-fusion".

Hors contexte, c'est un appareil plus ou moins furtif fabriqué par LM, et à la limite c'est tout ce qu'il y a à retenir.

[Pakal]

Sur la photo du F35 posté dans le fil de la composante air belge je suis très surpris que les trappes d'ouverture de soutes à munition du F35 ne soient pas parallèles avec l'axe de l'avion.  Cela doit créer une trainée monumentale et annuler la furtivité ? 

 

 

 

[Toratoratora]

il y a 24 minutes, Pakal a dit :

Sur la photo du F35 posté dans le fil de la composante air belge je suis très surpris que les trappes d'ouverture de soutes à munition du F35 ne soient pas parallèles avec l'axe de l'avion.  Cela doit créer une trainée monumentale et annuler la furtivité ? 

 

 

 

C'est pour mieux faire rentrer l'air dans la soute et la refroidir.

[true_cricket]

Il y a 1 heure, Pakal a dit :

Sur la photo du F35 posté dans le fil de la composante air belge je suis très surpris que les trappes d'ouverture de soutes à munition du F35 ne soient pas parallèles avec l'axe de l'avion.  Cela doit créer une trainée monumentale et annuler la furtivité ?

Les lignes de courant le long d'un mobile ne sont pas forcément dans l'axe du mouvement de l'avion. On le voit bien sur les F-18 super hornet (et pas le legacy) qui portent leurs missiles de façon divergente.

[prof.566]

Le F-18 C/D est il un bon exemple?

[Toratoratora]

Il y a 1 heure, true_cricket a dit :

Les lignes de courant le long d'un mobile ne sont pas forcément dans l'axe du mouvement de l'avion. On le voit bien sur les F-18 super hornet (et pas le legacy) qui portent leurs missiles de façon divergente.

Oui mais ça c'est un merdage conceptuel pour le largage, le rafale a ses emports bien alignés et c'est parfaitement logique quand la conception aéro est bien faite. Corriger une erreur par une incongruité n'est pas une règle ou une évidence, d'ailleurs cet emport décalé doit couter un bras en aérodynamique à haute vitesse.

[Patrick]

Il y a 8 heures, Toratoratora a dit :

d'ailleurs cet emport décalé doit couter un bras en aérodynamique à haute vitesse.

Il se dit que le rayon d'action du F-18E/F/G aurait du être bien supérieur à celui du F-18C/D, et que du fait de ces pylones en biais, lorsque ceux-ci sont installés avec des armements dessus, le rayon d'action est équivalent à l'ancien Hornet dans les mêmes conditions d'emport.

Donc oui ce n'est pas une réussite il semblerait...

[herciv]

Les problème d'hypoxie sont aussi sur le A-10.

http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pages/2018/January 2018/Investigation-into-Root-Cause-of-A-10-Physiological-Incident-Ongoing.aspx

Modifié le 23 janvier 2018 par herciv

[herciv]

Nouvelles en vrac : le f-35 pour la Belgique a de bonne chances de passer, le japon déploie ses propres f-35, LM propose à l'Inde de fabriquer ses f-35

On est content d'apprendre que le coût des f-35 pour la Belgique inclus les moteurs.

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/forums/military-aviation.11/

[zx]

 

4 firmes turques font une offre pour le F-35, contrat de liaison réseau de la Force aérienne

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/01/23/4-turkish-firms-bid-for-f-35-air-force-network-linking-contract/

Calm down everyone, there’s no plan to put an F-35 production line in India

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2018/01/23/calm-down-everyone-theres-no-plan-to-put-an-f-35-production-line-in-india/

Modifié le 23 janvier 2018 par zx

[herciv]

Ca continue à chouiner au UK. Ce coup-ci c'est le ministère du Trésor qui a peur de la spirale infernale du MCO.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/defence-chiefs-told-to-sort-out-f-35-jet-costs-mwtgptkp6

Defence chiefs must “urgently resolve” talks with the Treasury over who picks up the bill for a fall in the pound when buying US-made F-35 jets, MPs said. The public accounts committee said other military purchases would be put at risk if the multibillion-pound cost of the 138 stealth aircraft and two new aircraft carriers went over budget.

The comments came in a report on the delivery of carrier strike — the ability to launch fast jets from aircraft carriers at sea. The Ministry of Defence has budgeted to spend more than £14 billion on the programme by 2021. “The defence budget is very strained in the light of commitments made in the last strategic defence and security review,” the report said, in reference to plans set out in 2015 to purchase new warships, nuclear-armed submarines, armoured vehicles and aircraft.

The MoD based its budget for the programme on an assumption that £1 was worth $1.55 but sterling has fallen significantly since the vote for Brexit. The MPs said that the MoD “should urgently resolve ongoing discussions with the Treasury regarding current forward [hedging] contracts. Given the department’s tight financial position, the department should establish with Treasury if relief can be provided, and write to the committee with an update”.
 

[herciv]

La fiche LM d'avancement du programme F-35.

https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a63ddcc0c289f9457bc3ebab.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/13567/f-35_fast_facts_jan_2018.pdf

[Toratoratora]

Il y a 2 heures, herciv a dit :

La fiche LM d'avancement du programme F-35.

https://a855196877272cb14560-2a4fa819a63ddcc0c289f9457bc3ebab.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/13567/f-35_fast_facts_jan_2018.pdf

Franchement 100 pour la Turquie c'est pas fait. Les 90 appareils italiens j'ai un doute sur le financement. 138 pour la GB... entre le brexit et la chute de la livre on verra. 50 pour Israel, ça c'est possible vu qu'ils ne les payent pas ou presque.

Enfin 100 pour le Canada... j'ai jamais vu un tel chiffre, c'est beaucoup moins non?

 

[herciv]

Il y a 5 heures, Toratoratora a dit :

Franchement 100 pour la Turquie c'est pas fait. Les 90 appareils italiens j'ai un doute sur le financement. 138 pour la GB... entre le brexit et la chute de la livre on verra. 50 pour Israel, ça c'est possible vu qu'ils ne les payent pas ou presque.

Enfin 100 pour le Canada... j'ai jamais vu un tel chiffre, c'est beaucoup moins non?

 

Aujourd'hui le Canada en veut 88.

138 pour la GB : attention le dollard chute contre toute les monnaies dont la livre. Donc même si ça ouine au ministère du trésor anglais l'argument livre contre Dollard ne marchera pas tout le temps.

Modifié le 24 janvier 2018 par herciv