Appel d'offre brésilien

[Skw]

Voici une brève publiée (version traduite) sur le site internet de la Tribuna do Norte, le 30 juin 2009 :

« Les sénateurs “toucans”* Eduardo Azeredo (Minas Gerais), Flexa Ribeiro (Paraíba), Sérgio Guerra (Pernambucano) et Jarbas Vasconcelos (PMDB-Pernambucano) flânent à Stockholm, selon eux « à l’invitation du gouvernement suédois », pour visiter Saab, fabriquant d’avions de chasse, que le pays tente de vendre au Brésil. Le voyage a surpris jusqu’aux diplomates brésiliens en Suède. Les conseillers de Azeredo et Ribeiro confirment que tout fut payé par la Suède. »

Les membres du Parti de la Social Démocratie Brésilienne, principal adversaire du Parti des Travailleurs de Lula, sont appelés « toucans », puisque l’animal étant l’emblème de ce parti.

[TMor]

A nos amis qui lisent le portugais...

http://www.alide.com.br/wforum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1379&start=1902

Traduction googlienne d'un article trouvé là :

http://defesabrasil.com/site/index.php/Noticias/FAB/Dassault-promete-fabricar-cacas-no-Brasil.html

The dispute for the Brazilian order for new jets is becoming ever more fierce. The French Dassault presented a proposal which has to be built in Brazil of the 36 fighters multiple jobs to be ordered in the initial batch of F-X2 project. The offer seeks to entice the government to generate the wave hundreds of jobs in Embraer, providing more than 4 thousand employees in February, causing discomfort in the Planalto Palace. "This is purely a decision of the Brazilian government. We leave open the option of opening an assembly line in the country," said the director of the Value Dassault in Brazil, Jean-Marc Merialdo. Last week, Boeing, another competitor, was in Brazil presented a proposal improved.

The technical report of FAB evaluating the three suppliers who reached the final stage of the competition is close to a conclusion. Dispute a contract estimated at more than $ 2 billion, in addition to Dassault (with the Rafale), the Swedish Saab (Gripen NG) and Boeing (F-18 E / F Super Hornet). The analysis of the FAB criteria covering commercial, technical, operational, logistical, compensation trade, industrial and technology transfer. The market expects a decision at the end of the year.

The representative of the Dassault, the company obtained authorization from the French government for the "full transfer of technology" to the Air Force and the defense industry for the construction of Brazilian fighters, including the opening of source codes. On the eve of the new game of choice of the FAB, the Dassault signed 38 cooperation agreements with Brazilian authorities and industries in a total of 65 projects. Embraer is obviously the main part of the program of cooperation, but also involve medium enterprises as Mectron, and Atech Aeroeletronica. Merialdo ensured that there are no restrictions for transferring knowledge in the integration of weapons systems and data link system (responsible for communications between fighter bases and the land), areas of the FAB.

By sharing values with Brazil and want to strengthen their position in the international arena, the French government has a "strategic agreement" with the country and Dassault to build a "long-term partnership," said Merialdo. For him, the Company has "great potential" to work with the company in product development, with the advantage of not competing in the same segments, such as medium-sized business jets.

Dassault also holds 0.9% of the shares of Embraer, but this time there is any kind of association - vetoed in the current competition of FAB - between the two. It is the opposite of what occurred in the FX original, quod in early 2005 by decision of President Lula. On occasion, they disputed with the Mirage 2000 BR game, a previous generation of the Rafale. Now the Air Force determined that the supplier must share their knowledge with the Company, within a long-term program of technology transfer.

In the recent visit by Lula to Italy, where he attended the summit with Sarkozy G8 expanded, came the news - without confirmation from the Planalto Palace - that he said the French president who was a winner of the competition. The Center for Social Communication of the Air (Cecomsaer) states that the committee's F-X2 Atem is the technical report, which will give grants to the government's decision. Ultimately, however, Lula and Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, a francófilo made when the subject is the reequipping of the Armed Forces, may make a political choice.

Besides having taken the Rafale for the final phase of the F-X2, Brazil recently closed the purchase of 51 Cougar EC-725 helicopters, which will be manufactured in partnership with Helibras, and four conventional submarines Scorpène class, plus a largest hull - the same model - to accommodate the nuclear reactor developed by the Navy.

In fierce competition with American and Swedish, Merialdo emphasizes that the Rafale is a new program, but mature. " The first game went into service in 2001, has been used in recognition of tactical missions and ground attack on the war in Afghanistan, and about 70 units in the French Air Force's fleet. The number should rise to 294 aircraft.

Critics point to the lack of the Rafale and the problems of scale in the history of cooperation with Brazil - the FAB operated the Mirage III over decades - like the Dassault weak points. Merialdo losses attributed to political interference in competition in South Korea and Singapore, but stressed that the supply of Rafale dispute over a hundred fighters to India and predict potential sales to Switzerland, Greece and United Arab Emirates.

On June 12, the final list of three suppliers of FAB gave their "best and final offer" on the F-X2 Competition. It is the breath - the English acronym of "Best and Final Offer" - as is known in military jargon.

Source: Valor Econômico

http://defesabrasil.com/site/index.php/Noticias/FAB/Entrevista-Michael-Coggins-Diretor-de-Desenvolvimento-de-Negocios-da-Boeing.html

From competitive discredited finalist in the F-X2. That was the great turning of the North American Boeing, one of three companies that dispute the billionaire contract to supply 36 new aircraft to fight for the Brazilian Air Force. If at the beginning who almost did not believe that the aerospace giant could survive the first stage of the competition, now the F/A-18 E / F Super Hornet is already seen by many as a strong candidate to equip the Brazilian aviation Hunting .

The reasons for such mistrust is not by chance. Brazil will require the winner of a broad program-trade and technology transfer. The country wants to ensure greater independence in the operation of aircraft, including the possibility of integration of Brazilian arms, and leverage the capacity of the Brazilian industry to compete in the global market for multi defense. It is precisely at this point it was believed that the U.S. proposal was hampered by traditional restrictions imposed by the U.S. Government to this type of agreement. According to the executives of Boeing, stumbles.

"All the technologies have already been approved for release.," Says Michael Coggins, Director of Business Development for Boeing, the primary responsibility for liaison between the company and the Brazilian industry. He says that the possible sale of the Super Hornet to Australia is different from other negotiations in the past. "The difference between the sale and any other that came before is the fact that the acquisition of the Super Hornet is a sale of government to government through the Foreign Military Sales process," he said. According to the Executive, the U.S. Government is obliged to resolve all issues of permits and policies before entering a type of competition. "It is a proposal of the United States Government and not to Boeing." He said. Coggins "[The choice of the Super Hornet] will strengthen the relationship between the largest economies and the Armed Forces of the Americas, South and North.," He added.

Passing through Brazil, where he continued the talks with Brazilian companies, he gave an exclusive interview with Defense Brazil. The executive spoke on the U.S. proposal to the country, technology transfer, local production and integration of national armaments in F-18 E / F Super Hornet.

Read the full text of the interview:

Defense Brazil - According to Bob Gower (Vice-President of the Super Hornet program), in Boeing's proposal to Brazil were included 28 projects in 25 Brazilian companies. You can list them or indicate the major projects and companies? What has been talked with Mectron, Embraer, Avibras, among others?

Michael Coggins - The projects range from pure research of technologies involving advanced materials and supersonic aerodynamics for design work for upgrades, modeling and simulation of the Super Hornet, to the manufacture of subcomponents of the aircraft for maintenance and support of all the Super Hornet program .

The partners were chosen based on their current capabilities and their strategic goals in the aerospace industry. Obviously, the main cited are leaders in their respective fields and should be added to the list as ATECH and Aeroelectronica, for example.

DB - The Secretary of State for Latin America, Tom Shannon, said the purchase of the Super Hornet would be an offset of 117 projects only under the Embraer. It can point in general which includes such projects? What is the difference between these projects with the Embraer 117 and the other 28 projects in 25 Brazilian companies cited by Bob Gower?

MC - Our original proposal included more than offset a hundred potential applications. After discussions with the FAB meetings for clarification in March, our initiatives have been grouped so that each element of each exhibit project life cycle and could be considered "sustainable", with economic value in the long term.

DB - Northrop and General Electric have been identified as examples of possible partner for Brazilian companies in the design of the F-X2. What are the projects and what are the national partners?

MC - Actually, all members of the partnership of the Super Hornet industry were brought to support the program and benefit of offsets. GE obviously has projects related to the engine and Northrop several other large projects in materials and workmanship.

DB - In relation to GE, there would be any possibility of production of the F414 engine in the company's subsidiary in Brazil, GE Celma, or at least their capacity to overhaul these engines?

MC - Assembly, maintenance and testing of engines are made in Brazil.

DB - Still on the turbines in May this year was reported that Boeing was studying the offer to prospective foreign customers of the Super Hornet, the allocation of GE F414 engines modified (Enhanced occurred Engine - EDE), capable of developing a maximum power greater than 20% that the engine currently used. This type of engine was offered to Brazil?

MC - It was offered as it was not a requirement of the RFP.

DB - Also in May this year, it was reported that Lockheed Martin developed a new IRST for the Super Hornet. This system was included in the proposal for Brazil?

MC - The biggest benefit with the purchase of the Super Hornet is that Brazil will have the advantage of more than $ 1 billion in planned investments that the United States will do in the development of improved capabilities. The Brazilian government will benefit from not having to fund this development and will benefit the Brazilian industry to participate in the development and production of new systems. No other system in the competition can offer the benefits they can offer the Super Hornet. Brazil can decide which items you want and what the items that make no sense for him.

DB - The F-X2 provides for the purchase of only 36 aircraft, but the choice probably will in future orders with the additional potential of up to 120 aircraft. According to Jim Albaugh (President of the division of Boeing's defense), the proposal provides for the Boeing's production in Brazil of "large part" components of the Super Hornet in the event of victory in the F-X2. The Boeing believes that "much"? Components that would be produced in Brazil? What is the expected rate of nationalization? In case of subsequent batches, could further increase the number of components produced in Brazil?

MC - Brazilian industry will build significant portions of the fuselage, the wings, will integrate the weapons platform and will support the operation of the aircraft. Brazilian industry was who selected these items as the most agregarão value in the short and long term for your business.

DB - One of the key requirements of Brazil is access to parts of the source code of the aircraft that would allow the integration of the Brazilian national armaments. Boeing included this option in the proposal and has all necessary approvals for this?

MC - The U.S. government approved the integration of weapons platform in Brazil with the Brazilian industry doing software development.

DB - The AN/APG-79 AESA radar Raytheon team that the F/A-18E/F Block II is considered one of the most advanced in use today and this is a somewhat secret equipment. Boeing's proposal for Brazil offers a technology transfer of this equipment? If so, at what level would be?

MC - The AN/APG-79 AESA radar is the most advanced AESA in production today (and not "one"), and approved its release in Brazil and included in the proposal. This is a great example of great progress in the liberalization process already approved by the U.S. Government.

DB - The AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles are the key to the Super Hornet combat aircraft. Which version of AIM-120 offered to Brazil? Some specialized sources disclosed that the sale of AIM-9X was vetoed, this information is true? Where, why and the version offered?

MC - Brazil preferred integrate their WVR missiles in place of the AIM-9X and the U.S. government approved, as it is consistent with the desire to expand the capacity of the Brazilian industry.

DB - And the AIM-120?

MC - Brazil preferred integrate their own missiles.

DB - What weapons are being offered to combat land targets? Package are included in the JSOW missiles, SLAM-ER and JDAM bombs?

MC - You can check with the FAB.

DB - So far has not left the DSCA's notification to Congress of the United States about the possibility of sales (FMS) of the Super Hornet to Australia. Why is this lack of notification? It would be a sign that the proposal still does not fully with the endorsement of the U.S. government?

MC - In the case of Brazil, the Government of the United States is actually speeding up the process as a sign of his desire for a closer military relationship. We hope that the notification happen soon. No action is required to get approval of Congress. The notification to Congress is usually done immediately before the submission of a Letter of Offer and Acceptance by the United States Government to the country interested in purchasing the equipment.

DB - The largest military and mistrust of some Brazilian experts and the specialized press is related to possibility of the U.S. vetoes the Brazilian projects or transfers of sensitive technologies. Vetoes occurred not only in the past. Even in 2008 there were problems with the import of certain products for the national missile MAR-1, for example. Boeing can ensure that this policy has changed and now Brazil will have easier access to weapons and technology from the United States?

MC - The difference between the sale and any other that came before is the fact that the acquisition of the Super Hornet is a sale of government to government through the Foreign Military Sales process. The United States Government is obliged to resolve all issues of permits and policies before entering into a binding offer that is exactly what happened in the Super Hornet. All the technologies have already been approved for release and all details of the program, as described in the U.S. proposal has the full support and good faith of the United States Government.

DB - In March this year, it was reported that there were seven "political vetoes" among the more than 2 thousand licenses of the Super Hornet. What are these vetoes or specifically what kind of things they would or would not do that Brazil?

MC - The two thousand licenses are not related to the Super Hornet and we have no knowledge of any such licenses have been denied. Protecting a permit is generally an administrative procedure that is guided by political decisions. In the case of the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, all policies, permits and approvals are in order to support the Super Hornet Proposal to Brazil.

DB - What is the difference of the proposed Boeing? Why should Brazil choose the Super Hornet?

MC - Remember, it is a proposal of the Government of the United States and not Boeing's. The Super Hornet provides by far the biggest consideration. It is the most capable aircraft, at a great price. We have a program based on logistics practice in the United States, which are considered the world standard. The costs of operation will be lower since the Super Hornets of the FAB will be part of a fleet of over 800 aircraft, rather than a fleet orphan. The risk associated with the program is insignificant compared with the competition - from a schedule, budget, program management, development (eg, the current aircraft development programs have shown 100% of delays) and the point of view of offsets.

The choice of the Super Hornet allows the Brazilian Air Force is receiving more than a billion dollars in investment in future developments planned by the U.S. Government in the improvement of the aircraft. The program not only offsets the transfer key technologies and create jobs in Brazil, it provides industry access to Brazilian markets for one or two times higher than the competition. It will strengthen the relationship between the largest economies and the Armed Forces of the Americas, South and North.

Moi, j'ai peur.  :-[

[Akhilleus]

it is a proposal of the Government of the United States and not Boeing's

comme si y'avait une difference

The Super Hornet provides by far the biggest consideration. It is the most capable aircraft, at a great price.

La phrase passe partout du commercial

We have a program based on logistics practice in the United States, which are considered the world standard

pour depenser plus certainement

the costs of operation will be lower since the Super Hornets of the FAB will be part of a fleet of over 800 aircraft, rather than a fleet orphan.

cela aurait été vrai (et encore) si les bresiliens avaient deja des F18 en ligne

(eg, the current aircraft development programs have shown 100% of delays)

lol

de toute façon le F18 est court sur pattes pour les bresiliens

par contre ca :

The choice of the Super Hornet allows the Brazilian Air Force is receiving more than a billion dollars in investment in future developments planned by the U.S. Government in the improvement of the aircraft. The program not only offsets the transfer key technologies and create jobs in Brazil, it provides industry access to Brazilian markets for one or two times higher than the competition. It will strengthen the relationship between the largest economies and the Armed Forces of the Americas, South and North.

ca peut faire mal .....

[Skw]

Concernant le SH, des bruits (récurrents, mais que je n'ai jamais pu lire dans un article rédigé par un journaliste sérieux) laissent à penser que la FAB n'a pas réellement été séduite par les conditions de vente des AIM-120 et AIM-9.

A voir...

[TMor]

Justement, sur la question des armes, le mec de Boeing est nettement moins prolixe...

DB - The AIM-120 and AIM-9X missiles are the key to the Super Hornet combat aircraft. Which version of AIM-120 offered to Brazil? Some specialized sources disclosed that the sale of AIM-9X was vetoed, this information is true? Where, why and the version offered?

MC - Brazil preferred integrate their WVR missiles in place of the AIM-9X and the U.S. government approved, as it is consistent with the desire to expand the capacity of the Brazilian industry.

DB - And the AIM-120?

MC - Brazil preferred integrate their own missiles.

DB - What weapons are being offered to combat land targets? Package are included in the JSOW missiles, SLAM-ER and JDAM bombs?

MC - You can check with the FAB.

Je serais à peine étonné qu'il ait fait la grimace en répondant à ces trois questions.

[Skw]

Oui, TMor. On peut sans doute l'interpréter comme tu le fais. Car, à l'inverse le Brésil se dit plutôt intéressé par le Météor.

Et quand j'écris "pas été séduite", il faut peut-être même comprendre "a clairement été déçue", voire "on se fout de notre gueule".

---

Concernant le transfert des technologies du Rafale:

Si l'on reprend l'article concernant Dassault et que tu viens d'inscrire en ce fil, on peut y lire:

"Merialdo ensured that there are no restrictions for transferring knowledge in the integration of weapons systems and data link system (responsible for communications between fighter bases and the land), areas of the FAB "

Sur les fora brésiliens, cette phrase est interprétée par beaucoup comme : "c'est loin d'être sûr que vous ayez la TOT sur l'AESA, sur le Spectra, et sur quelques autres équipements sensibles du Rafale". D'un côté, c'est pas étonnant. Mais, étant donné l'âpreté de la compétition, il n'est pas inutile de se poser la question.

[TMor]

Donc vous doutez de leur disposition à effectuer le transfert total... J'vais passer un coup de fil, ça va s'arranger.

[Skw]

Donc, TMor, tu penses que le transfert sera total, pour toutes les parties de l'avion (Spectra, AESA, etc.) ?

[TMor]

Pas loin.

L'AESA était proposé en co-développement avec les coréens et les singapouriens... Je ne suis pas sûr que ça soit la partie sensible, en tout cas pas pour les modes courants et connus.

Sur Spectra, je conçois qu'il puisse y avoir des doutes. Sur le "mode 3". Je ne sais pas comment ça marche, si les brésiliens auront un catalogue où ils choisissent ce qu'ils veulent comme fonctions... ?

[Philippe Top-Force]

Donc vous doutez de leur disposition à effectuer le transfert total... J'vais passer un coup de fil, ça va s'arranger.

Dépêches-toi alors, car c'est le 9 septembre que Sarkozy et Lula doivent à nouveau se rencontrer au Brésil.

"Dassault : journée "Rafale" pour le ministre de la Défense brésilien"

17 juillet 09 - Sud Ouest

Il y a quelques jours, Nelson Jobim, le ministre brésilien de la Défense, a rendu visite aux différents sites de production et d'assemblage de l'avion Rafale à Mont-de-Marsan et à Mérignac. L'avion de combat du groupe Dassault Aviation est en compétition, au Brésil, pour un marché de quelque 36 appareils

[Rom_un]

Sur Bloomberg

By Joshua Goodman

July 21 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA is prepared to build 36 Rafale warplanes in Brazil in a bid to be chosen over Boeing Co. and Saab AB for a $2 billion order, Valor Economico said, citing the Paris-based company’s representative in Brazil.

Dassault has signed contracts with Empresa Brasilieira de Aeronautica SA, the world’s fourth-largest planemaker, and 37 other companies to shift production of the Rafale to Brazil, Jean-Marc Merialdo said, according to the Sao Paulo-based newspaper. Dassault has a 0.9 percent stake in Embraer, Valor said.

As part of a long-term defense agreement with Brazil, the French government has also authorized Dassault to transfer all of the Rafale’s technology to Brazil, including the source codes for the fighter jet, the newspaper said, citing Merialdo.

Brazil’s military is expected to decide the winner of the so-called FX-2 program later this year.

Sur le site Oglobo

A francesa Dassault apresentou uma proposta na qual se dispõe a construir no Brasil os 36 caças de múltiplo emprego a serem encomendados no lote inicial do projeto F-X2.

traduit avec google :

Merialdo assuré qu'il n'existe pas de restrictions de transfert de connaissances dans l'intégration de systèmes d'armes et de système de liaison de données (responsable de la communication entre les bases de combat et de la terre), les domaines de la FAB

Ni radar ni SPECTRA ?

[g4lly]

Ni radar ni SPECTRA?

De toute facon si on veut vendre le bébé il faut bien promettre des truc en béton ... on peut toujours trainer un peu des pieds a posteriori pour enrichir la base de donnée Spectra ou tarder un peu dans les mise a jour radar. De toute facon ces techno sont frappé d'obsolescence a 5/10ans ... on peut bien leur leguer le code apres s'il paye le tarif et participent au mise a niveau de l'engin.

C'est tout juste si on va pas leur filer un SNA complet sur plan ... alors quelques technos aero plus tout a fait secrete, et ce dans quelques années pourquoi pas. Reste qu'on ne connait pas les détail du contrat et les intentions de Dassault de transférer effectivement ... ce qu'il voudra bien. Le code source c'est bien gentil ... m'enfin libre a dassault de pas filer la derniere version ... ou de filer une version expurgée. Apres que eux soit capable de l'améliorer tant mieux pour eux ... De toute facon, du code ca se dessassemble, avec un peu de volonté et du temps on fait cracher ses petits secrets a n'importe quel soft ou hardware.

[TMor]

Clairement, dans A&C, Thalès s'avouait tranquille pour filer tout le radar.

On nous dit d'abord "transfert total". Et ensuite, petit détail sur le système d'arme et la liaison de donnée...

Or :

1) système d'arme : nécessaire pour intégrer autre chose que du Scalp/Mica/Exocet/AASM/RecoNG etc et apparemment, la FAB compte bien utiliser des trucs à elle, donc il faut leur dire, pas de soucis ;

2) liaison de donnée : la L16 ou une alternative, faut voir l'aspect OTAN, faut voir ce dont dispose le Brésil...

Il n'est pas question de RBE-2 ou de Spectra,  il me semble, mais j'imagine que l'imagination s'emballe vite à propos des 2 trucs les plus en vue de l'avion. La phrase de l'article peut être interprétée comme si les transferts se limitaient à l'intégration d'armes et à la liaison de donnée, mais aussi comme si ces deux points particuliers avaient été remis en cause dans l'ensemble.

Je penche pour la 2e solution. Il y a eu des craintes, la réponse est venue.

Pour être plus clair, je ne crois pas que Spectra et RBE-2 soient exclus des transferts, au contraire. Je pense juste que la phrase de l'article s'adresse à des craintes qui ont été exprimées.

Un peu comme dans le dialogue fictif :

-France : on vous donne tout !

-Brésil : même pour intégrer d'autres armes et les liaisons de donnée ?

-oui.

[Davout]

Les émiratis ont obtenu les codes sources du système d'arme du Rafale en cas d'achat de l'appareil. Les brésiliens obtiendront sans doute la même chose...

Si c'est un argument massue pour vendre notre avion (les américains refusent cela même à leurs plus proches alliés), cela ne compromet-il pas la survie de notre industrie nationale d'avions de combat en favorisant l'émergence de concurrents qui se passeront de notre expertise? Voir les mésaventures des russes vis-à-vis des chinois avec le Su-27 et son clone J-11B.

Jusqu'où les brésiliens nous donneront-ils des garanties quant à l'utilisation des technologies françaises qu'ils acquèreront? Jusqu'où ira leur collaboration avec nous avant qu'ils s'en affranchissent à l'image des espagnols en matière de sous-marin diesel/électrique?

La non exportation du Rafale jusqu'à présent me fait craindre de (trop) larges concessions envers un éventuel acheteur, qui nous sera préjudiciable à moyen/long terme.

[g4lly]

Les émiratis ont obtenu les codes sources du système d'arme du Rafale en cas d'achat de l'appareil. Les brésiliens obtiendront sans doute la même chose...

Si c'est un argument massue pour vendre notre avion (les américains refusent cela même à leurs plus proches alliés), cela ne compromet-il pas la survie de notre industrie nationale d'avions de combat en favorisant l'émergence de concurrents qui se passeront de notre expertise? Voir les mésaventures des russes vis-à-vis des chinois avec le Su-27 et son clone J-11B.

Jusqu'où le brésiliens nous donneront-ils des garanties quant à l'utilisation des technologies françaises qu'ils acquèreront? Jusqu'où ira leur collaboration avec nous avant qu'ils s'en affranchissent à l'image des espagnols en matière de sous-marin diesel/électrique?

La non exportation du Rafale jusqu'à présent me fait craindre de (trop) larges concessions envers un éventuel acheteur, qui nous sera préjudiciable à moyen/long terme.

Le fait d'avoir le bébé sous la main te donne implicitement le code des softs ... du moins si t'es motivés. Rien n'empeche de désassemblé les software et "hardware" de l'engin. Le truc qui se négocie c'est le droit de le faire ... mais bon ca ... encore faut il avoir les moyen de faire valoir.

[Akhilleus]

qu'ils prennent donc les codes source

c'est pas comme si ce segment d'avions etait deja pas saturé

une fois qu'on aura vendu nos rafales à ces 2 pays (et peut etre quelques autres comme la Suisse ou la Grece) il restera de toute façon pas de segment de marché libre pour un rafale made in Brazil fabriqué 10 ans après (ou alors des segments d'appareils low costs qui ne nous interessent pas)

[Berkut]

Et puis faut pas oublier que DA s'en cogne royalement car c'est son dernier chasseur, alors ils peuvent bien le cloner, ça ne les empêchera pas de dormir :lol:

[TMor]

C'est peut-être la DGA qui regarde de plus près.  :lol:

[Arka_Voltchek]

Et les codes sources, si ils permettent la modification de l'électronique de l'avion et son évolution, ne permettent pas d'en créer un de toute pièce, pour ça, c'est de l'aérodynamique et des connaissances structurales qui ne s'acquière pas de la même manière  (mais pas expérience). Le seul avantage d'avoir le code source, c'est une certaine indépendance dans l'utilisation de leur avion. Là où il faut demander aux US pour le tir d'un missile, ça fait une différence non négligeable.

@+, Arka

[TMor]

Cette phase me rappelle Singapour...

On n'ose pas ne pas y croire, on s'imagine être bien placé pour tout un tas de raisons.

N'empêche qu'on a les américains en face.

[pascal]

au Brésil les ricains avancent derrière le Gripen

[Skw]

Et les codes sources, si ils permettent la modification de l'électronique de l'avion et son évolution, ne permettent pas d'en créer un de toute pièce, pour ça, c'est de l'aérodynamique et des connaissances structurales qui ne s'acquière pas de la même manière  (mais pas expérience).

Ca c'est sûr, et c'est d'ailleurs pourquoi certains économistes pensent que l'espionnage de masse réalisé par les soviétiques fut contre-productif sur la longueur. Copier un matériel et le concevoir impliquent des niveaux de connaissances bien différents.

Cette phase me rappelle Singapour... On n'ose pas ne pas y croire, on s'imagine être bien placé pour tout un tas de raisons. N'empêche qu'on a les américains en face.

Les Brésiliens semblent plus indépendants que les Sud-Coréens (comment auraient-ils pu balancer les US ?) ou même les Indiens. En plus, le gouvernement Lula a justement réussi à donner une place au Brésil sur la scène internationale en se distançant des USA... contrairement à ce qu'avaient pu faire les gouvernements antérieurs. Paradoxalement, la France, ce pays déclinant sur l'échiquier international, pourrait être d'un plus grand intérêt pour le Brésil.

[TMor]

Vu la news de Skw, la Suède veut charmer l'opposition à Lula...  

[Skw]

La France a fait un peu la même chose que la Suède lors du 14 juillet. Mais l'origine politique des invités était beaucoup plus diversifiée. En plus du ministre de la défense N. Jobim, il s'agissait généralement des leaders des différents partis à l'Assemblée, ou de députés influents, à la tête des comissions sur les questions de défense nationale, de relations internationales.

J'ai adoré la phrase de Michel Temer, président à la chambre des députés : "Houve um lobby muito saudável e elegante, porque é um interesse de ambas as partes". C'est à dire "Il y a eu un lobby très sain et élégant, parce que l'intérêt est des deux côtés."  :lol:

Autre extrait: Raul Jungmann, expliquant qu'un partenariat avec la France dans le domaine de  la défense est important pour le Brésil: "c'est la possibilité d'accéder à une technologie du premier monde, ce que les américains ne font pas. Ils ne libèrent pas le code-source, ne libèrent pas la plate-forme, n'acceptent pas le processus de développement."

Source: defesanet

[Rom_un]

Il manque à la Suède un atout majeur pour vendre des armes à un pays candidat à l'élargissement du conseil permanent de sécurité de l'ONU, c'est de faire partis de ce conseil.

ça vaut aussi pour l'Inde.